All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix Player!
NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfv801qd7tb0e8z/Contest_25.zip?dl=1
Music: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gvcat4hmax02pzn/Contest_25_Music.zip?dl=1
Styles + Sounds (I think these are already in the NL styles download but just to be sure...): https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkclusygig310d2/Contest_25_Styles.zip?dl=1
Rule 1 Levels
Armani's "Insert Coin, Choose Lemming" (V1)
Dire Krow's "Infiltration" (V1)
IchoTolot's "The Four Corners Of Cloud Seven" (V1)
Kingshadow3's "No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That!" (V2)
The Tomato Watcher's "Lemsicle" (V2)
WillLem's "It's All A Matter Of Spacing" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission" (V3)
Rule 2 Levels
Apjjm's "Roiling Clouds" (V1)
Armani's "Tightrope Planet" (V2)
Crane's "Looks simple enough..." (V1)
DireKrow's "Steep Bee-scent" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Decent Default Design" (V2)
Kingshadow3's "Atmospheric Breach" (V2)
tan x dx's "Not much to work with..." (V5)
The Tomato Watcher's "A Roundabout Trip" (V5)
WillLem's "Minimalemism" (V1)
kwywhyn's "The 10 Piece Puzzle Rush" (V3)
Rule 3 Levels
Apjjm's "A Digital Switchover" (V4)
Armani's "Underwater Hijackers" (V1)
Dire Krow's "Ancient Lemmarine" (V2)
IchoTolot's "Starlight Pinball Zone" (V1)
Kingshadow3's "Mad Dad's Chemical Research Dept." (V2)
tan x dx's "The Treachery of Lemmings" (V1)
The Tomato Watcher's "The Claaaaaw..." (V1)
WillLem's "Bosom Buddies" (V1)
kaywhyn's "The Lemming Calculator" (V10)
You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5914.0
Playing Phase will be closed on 31th of May! (A bit longer due to LOTY overlapping a bit)
Updates will close on 28th of May!
Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.
Link to update topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5975.0)
Ok, already had a late entry while creating the topic - kaywhyn's levels have been added! ;)
Updated the music zip as I forgot the music files for The Tomato Watcher's levels, be sure to redownload! :)
Managed to solve 2 R2 levels tonight, but one of them felt like a backroute.
WillLem's "Minimalemism"
Clever little level here! Good use of splat fields, and I liked how you used both the Floater and the Glider in different ways. Nice use of Bombers too. :thumbsup:
kaywhyn's "The 10 Piece Puzzle Rush"
Very fast-paced level. Lots of options for where the Climbers and Jumper go. I especially liked figuring out the best way to get a lemming ahead to bomb under the trap. Though, I may have done that wrong, or perhaps it was getting a lemming ahead to platform across the gap. Either way, I ended with an extra Floater and a completely unused Laserer! :lem-shocked:
@The Tomato Watcher:
Thanks for the replay for my R2. Yup, that's a backroute. For V2, I've adjusted the time limit, so this will probably force the intended solution I have in mind now :P
@kaywhyn How's this? Quite satisfying to figure out, especially
Spoiler
the part where both the Slider and Floater go over the block and end up going opposite ways.
:thumbsup:
@The Tomato Watcher:
Getting closer, but not quite what I had in mind. Not really noticeable, but for V3 a slight shift in the terrain, but still shouldn't be a problem for you.
@kaywhyn Hope I've got it now, it certainly felt more challenging.
Spoiler
That's some decently tight timing concerning when to send the Slider over (and/or when to make him a Floater). You gotta send him early enough for him to finish the platform before the crowd gets to the pit, but you gotta send him late enough so that the first group of lemmings doesn't go down the Laserer tunnel. Tricky! :thumbsup:
@The Tomato Watcher:
Intended! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
My solution has the first two become the climbers, while the third lemming turns back to the left, jumps over the green block and past the trap to bomb away the terrain where the trap trigger is. However, your solution is acceptable, as either way the core tricks of sending two lemmings over the block at the very top to do the work and release the stragglers that won't make it to the exit on time if you don't laser through the big block are now there. The other thing to realize is that you will always finish with a second to spare, although I realize that I can now put it back on the original timer (I'm a dumb-dumb, that would render the laserer useless again and hence why the fix was needed in the first place, so no, the original timer cannot be reinstated) I had before. So, I might release another version doing that, but it will not break your solution. So, everything is fine on your part. Great job! ;)
played through all rule1 levels. 8-)
They all probably are not quite intended :sick: other than Icho's level which is I'm pretty sure open-ended.
Quote from: Armani on April 04, 2022, 04:32:09 PM
played through all rule1 levels. 8-)
They all probably are not quite intended :sick: other than Icho's level which is I'm pretty sure open-ended.
For my level... it's much closer to the intended solution than you think! You solved all of the 'problems' you were intended to solve, and used
most of the skills in the places you were intended to use them... you just did it in a way that takes a lot longer and was slightly more complicated, but saves a skill as a result.
I think I'm okay with leaving this as an alternate solution. I'd rather err on the side of keeping it a little more open-ended, to make it more accessible to people. Plus it provides a way to solve it without having to multitask, which I think people will appreciate.
If I really wanted to block this solution, then adding a 2:30 timer is something I could do. It would fit the level too, since some base infiltration have to be done under time pressure, after all ;P But I don't feel the need to do that yet. Another option I'll consider is to make beating it in <2:30 into a talisman.
@Armani Welp, that's frustrating.
Here's Why
I actually thought about that Jumper trick you did to free the Blocker without a Builder, but didn't test it thoroughly enough and assumed it wasn't possible! :forehead:
V2 is out now and should hopefully render that route impossible.
@Armani
Ugh, I can't believe I missed the obvious backroute in those two places at the very start for my R1. They were definitely oversights on my part, but at the same time that's what I get for waiting til very close to the end of the submission phase and not doing enough testing on my own levels :XD: For V2, I've added terrain and OWAs. Hopefully that blocks out other alternatives, but let's see how it holds up now!
resolved updated levels :D Both seem good now :thumbsup:
Lemsicle
I used all skills now! I love the part where I have to keep using multiple jumpers to cross the snowman bridge :laugh:
Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission
This feels intended! I was really tempted to free the floater-blocker with a walker but I also really wanted that walker to reach the borrom right exit. I concluded that the only blocker I can free with the walker is the climber lemming and I have to free the floater-blocker with well-aimed laserer. It was also very satisfying to figure out which lemming should take which exit, as some of them are only reachable by some specialist lemmings. I was 100% sure bottom left exit is for the glider/swimmer lemming but I wasn't so sure about the rest. After I figured out I can send normal lemming to top left exit with relatively few skills, everything came together nicely. Nice level :thumbsup:
@ArmaniDifferent from the intended solution, but this is also a really awesome solution that uses all the skills that I think this is a perfectly acceptable alternative.
Spoiler
The intended solution sends the normal preplaced lemming to the top right exit, while the climber simply goes back to his top left exit. For this, I platform with the glider/swimmer and he reaches over to the slanted platform in time so that the climber simply climbs back up and goes into the miner tunnel he made earlier. After bashing with the glider/swimmer to release the normal lemming, the latter lasers to the right instead, shimmies into it, builds to get high enough to jump and get over the block. I have the glider/swimmer use the underside of the platformer to shimmy so he bounces off the block and glides down to the bottom left. For the blocker floater, the other alternative is to release him with a walker after building enough of the staircase so the floater lands on it, turns around on the block back to the right, and then floats down to the bottom right. However, I didn't realize that I placed the blocker in a way that he can also be released with a laserer. Very nice catch! :thumbsup: I'll leave that part of your solution in, as he still needs to be turned back to the right at the bottom anyway.
Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad you liked my R1! :) I really love the solution here, as I tried to sprinkle in a variety of ways for the preplaced lemmings to get to the exits: Shimmier over the water pit with the non-swimmer, build to get high enough to laserer the ceiling and then use the resulting tunnel to shimmy into it to get onto the exit platform and then platform over the water pit to reach the exit, fence to get into the water pit to get to the exit, and finally laserer the ceiling and use the resulting tunnel to jump into it to get around the traps before the exit to reach the exit. So really, I'm quite proud of my R1 if I do say so myself :laugh:
Spot on, Armani! Very nicely done! :thumbsup:
and here're my solutions to all rule2s !
I don't smell any major backroutes this time.
Roiling Clouds
I only use about half of the platformers but I can see the main trick of this level is basher extension. At first I tried to send a lemming to the exit area and bash underneath to free the all 3 crowd. But it didn't work.
Looks simple enough...
That was a cute little level! The hardest part of the level was to figuring out that I have to contain the crowd in very tiny space so I can free them with a digger.
Steep Bee-scent
Although I have a leftover miner, I think my solution is at least on the right track. I didn't contain the crowd for long(I did temporarily ;P) and used most of the skills.
Decent Default Design
This was the hardest level of the rank. I'm impressed that it's absolutely possible to make difficult level within this ruleset. :D My solution has some timing-heavy part, so I wonder if I made it hard on myself. ???
Not much to work with...
I only used 2/3 of the given skills! Well the layout of the level is extremly simple and there not many things I can do as the title says.
A Roundabout Trip
This is the first level I've played with this tileset, and it looks great! The solution was quite straightforward or probably mine is completely different to what you have in mind as I didn't use the swimmer. ;P
Minimalemism
We don't have the splat-field object in NL but you nicely simulated the splat-field :thumbsup:
The 10 piece Puzzle Rush
I'm sure this is intended ;) I found out that I can swap a climber and a jumper in my solution but the rest of the solutions play out same.
@Armani:
R2 - Intended! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
You're indeed correct that you can swap the jumper and climber and it would still work. Indeed, my solution sends the first two lemmings out from the top as climbers to the right to prepare the path for everyone but is otherwise the same solution. In addition, by using a jumper to get past the block and the trap, you have some more leeway on the bomber placement :P However, your solution is fine. Needless to say, it seems that I've gotten into the realm of accepting slight variations for my levels with this contest :laugh:
Here, nothing too hard other than there's a lot of moving parts, but even with that it's still nothing. You're probably also starting to see some elements of your and Icho's designs in here with keeping the crowd moving instead of containing them. This is just the simplest of this level design with this element I've managed to come up with :laugh:
Cheeky backroute there Armani, but luckily it was a very easy fix. And yeah, I'm glad I dug up these last few official styles from Lemmings Tribes, as they have some real potential, certainly more than can be showcased by 10 terrain pieces. ;P
I talked about it on the discord, but I'll put here too for the record. Armani's solution to my R2 level is acceptable. It saves a skill, but honestly... I'm weighing up the idea of making Armani's solution the canonical one and officially removing that saved skill from the level.
@Armani
Intended solution :)
Spoiler
The extra skills are purely to reduce execution complexity and to open up lasering either tower from the first hatch. Anything that sends a basher back through the tunnel it just created is the intended solution.
@Armani
That's a backroute for my level! It seems kind of obvious now that you've pointed it out... :P
@Armani
While R1 is totally fine and open ended, R2 needs a fix as this is very unintended in quite a few parts, but lukily I still have 2 Object slots open for some OWWs. ;)
@Armani: Intended solution - well done. I'm glad you think my level is cute!
I Solved Armani's Rule 1 level.
replay attached
100% Intended :thumbsup: Nice job!
And the final rank 8-)
A Digital Switchover
I'm pretty sure I backrouted this level as I don't think this level is meant to be a disjoint union. ;P
Ancient Lemmarine
attached two replays. Both of them have some leftover skills. Even though the skillset is very small, the fact that I only have 3 bashers makes the level tricky and I have to think carefully about which route I should take. Not sure if my solution is acceptable but nice level nonetheless!
Starlight Pinball Zone
You really depicted pinball and flippers well :thumbsup: The level itself wasn't hard but it was satisfying to watch lemmings falling into drain from both side like a real pinball game :laugh:
The Treachery of Lemmings
Oh this is one of my favourite surrealism artwork. :D Also the level nicely use slider-stoner mechanics!
The Claaaaaw...
This level was definitely the hardest one of yours! The most difficult part for me was being effcient in terms of constructive skills. The builder count looks lenient at first but it runs out real fast :XD: Btw I don't recognize the object this level depicts...
Bosom Buddies
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: my absolute favourite level in terms of visuals.
The Lemming Calculator
I may have found a way to shortcut to the exit :XD: unless this level is meant to be open-ended level with more than enough skills. The visual is very nice! You made good use of chalk style to draw a calculator, that was creative! :thumbsup:
@Armani
R3: Ugh, that's a backroute, and I'm not sure how I missed that. This is what I get for not testing any of my levels extensively enough before the playing phase started :forehead: For V2, I have added a trap and shifted the terrain a bit. Let's see how the level holds up now!
Thanks for the compliments on the design, although honestly this is probably the laziest approach anyone can take in level designing, as everything in the Chalkboard tileset happens to be provided for me to be able to design the object very easily. As I'm very bad at art myself and can't draw for the life of me, naturally I would want to make the process of designing the object as easy as possible for myself, and the Chalkboard style happens to do a lot of it for me already :P
Also, notice the equations I've sprinkled around in the level, as well as the erroneous fact of Pi at the top, though that is a quote from a TV show :P
Your first replay of my R3 level was exactly the intended solution. The second replay is a backroute. Will fix that tomorrow.
@Armani - As you suspected, the R3 solution is a backroute - I will post an update later today with a fix to that pillar area.
Here are my solutions for rule 1 - the levels were great fun to solve, nicely done to the level creators :thumbsup:
1-Insert Coin Choose LemmingSpoiler
Creative idea with the lemming selection mechanism at the start of the level :thumbsup:
I approached the solve on this by working out the order of the lemmings backwards: the exit area can be effeciently reached with a slider, and the disamer is probably going to go after the path is already largely constructed. I liked that the path each lemming takes through the central area makes good use of their unique skills. The way the slider reaches the end and uses the completed path was a bit unexpected and very nice finish to the level. I initially thought I would be bombing a lemming to let the slider down, though perhaps if I had thought about things a bit more I might have realised why that couldn't possibly work :forehead:
Spoiler
I found this to be quite a tricky level as it was quite hard to see how to allocate the lemmings up/down. Eventually I focused on the button in the bottom right and saw that really only the climber could reach it, which suggested the glider needed to go up instead. The diggers are cleverly placed on this one - in particular the one on the upper route. Great job with the various lemmings needing to use their unique skills on this level, especially given the compactness of the level.
The conclusion to the level where the disamer removes the row of traps as the various other workers reach the exit was satisfying and nicely done.
Spoiler
A very nice builderless level. Harder destructive skill heavy builderless levels often make use of some kind of step-through area - I imagine with the skillset on this level (in particular the shimmier) it is possible to solve this level without using that trick (though I did end up making a step-through in my solution). Each of the buttons on this level telegraph that they must be hit by one of the unique skill lemmings, but the challenge isn't just getting the lemming to the button - it is often also keeping the others away too :thumbsup:
Given the skillset, I imagine this one has quite a few distinct solutions too, so will be interested to see how other solutions play out here.
Spoiler
I wonder if I backrouted this a bit, as looking at the level now I should probably have sent the slider down the left hand gap and shimmy above the clouds to hit the button.
A nice puzzle here & I like the concept of releasing the workers one-by-one. Deciding when the release the individual lemmings on this one (and how, given they could be released with a miner or a basher) definitely added to the challenge of the level. The main challenge I ran into on this one was towards the 2nd half of the level near the one-way wall - the currently released lemmings need to do two things: (1) reach the buttons & (2) only allow the floater & slider above the one-way walls - finding a setup that achieved this without trapping or losing a lemming was quite tricky :thumbsup:
Each of the lemmings released felt like they particpated in the solution - in particular the climber was both very helpful but also a nusience for the tendency to climb back over the set the pillars near the teleporter-receiver into an area with a deadly fall.
Spoiler
The second half of this level is quite subtle and took me quite a while to spot :thumbsup:. The swimmer does the heavy-lifting to start with by collecting the first two pickup skills, with the climber following up to resuce the 'lemsicle'. In my initial attempts for this one I tried to free the blocker by bashing from the right hand side after traversing the snowmen with the swimmer, but the climber is really needed to resuce that lemming effeciently. I liked the design of the snowmen area and that the lemmings play stepping-stones to reach the exit at the end.
Spoiler
Nice use of the laserer on this one :thumbsup:
When solving this one I decided to focus on how to resuce the climber first, as seemed like the most tricky lemming to save - It turned out this was a good choice as it requires two lemmings to be able to resuce with the platformers. I liked the way the solution followed on from this point with using the laserer + updraft to bring two controllable lemmings into the lower area. I did end up with a jumper leftover in my solution, which I think is probably because I backtracked & assigned the fencer at the start rather than cancelling it on the land by the water.
Spoiler
A tricky puzzle with each lemming needing to reach a specific exit.
I liked that a few of the exit assignments were a bit ambiguous at first glance - it isn't immediately obvious where the the regular lemming, climber or floater necessarily go. Despite this, the solution still requires each of the lemmings with skills to make good use of them (in the case of the walker, making double use of the shimmier). I also liked that the blockers weren't freed the same way, one used a walker and the other a laserer. I thought the detail with how the builder was used to make the shimmier near the rope safe was nice too.
I completed this one with a laserer leftover, so I hope this is an acceptable solution - as it was satisfying to solve :thumbsup:
@Apjjm - You played an older version of my R1, and hence your replay doesn't work for the current version. I was confused why it wasn't working, but I figured out that it's for V1. Even with V2, I'm sure you'll get it solved just the same :)
I have re-solved your rule 1, hopefully this one is acceptable :)
Spoiler
A lot of the feedback from before still applies, though this time I used all the skills & the level involved using the shimmier in an interesting way to ascend up a ledge.
Great job to both Armani and Apjjm!
Armani, your solution to my R3 isn't what I had in mind, but since it uses all (non-decorative) skills, accomplishes most of the same tasks as I intended, just in different ways, and is overall clever in its own right, it's a perfectly acceptable alternate solution! :thumbsup: (Also, it's supposed to depict two claw machines, but I definitely didn't do the best job with that.)
Apjjm, your solution to my R1 is spot on! And thanks for the couple nice things you had to say; my R1's definitely the level I'm most proud of this contest. :D
@Apjjm
Intended :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Glad you like this level. :laugh: If there's one thing I really tried to achieve more than anything else it's making sure that every specialist takes their own unique route. It's pretty obvious that slider lemming should be the last one to go and then you can deduce only the floater lemming can go first and prepare the safe path for the others. Well done :thumbsup:
@Armani and @Apjjm
While I thought to say both of your solutions are acceptable, the way Apjjm used the shimmiers I worry that they can be used to cheese the level somehow. So, instead of making alternatives viable, I have decided for V3 to maybe force towards the intended solution with some OWAs I added. So, especially to Armani, sorry to break your solution there which I said was acceptable before :XD: I feel they'll make the solution too obvious now, but once again I might be proven wrong there :P
@Armani Intended solution for my R3! :thumbsup:
@Apjjm Totally acceptable solution, but there are indeed ways to solve it without the step-through/interrupting technique. ;)
Sorry for posting again so soon after posting V3 of my R1, but I didn't realize V2 of my R3 wasn't included yet. My mistake there, I should had checked before I posted in the update topic earlier this hour. I have now included the file to download in the update topic
I have attached my solutions to all of the rule 2 levels. This was quite a challenging rule to design a level around, yet all the levels here have been fun to play and solve.
1-Roiling Clouds (V1)Spoiler
Of of my levels :)
The laserer can be used from quite a few places & some leftover skills are to be expected - there are plenty to avoid other acceptable solves running into precision or timing issues.
Spoiler
I liked how this level uses both seperating a lemming from the back & front of the crowd in the solution. My first attempt just sent a climber ahead but the traps needed to be constructed over from the other direction which put a stop to that.
I had a builder leftover in my solution, so I hope this is acceptable.
Spoiler
Quite a tricky one - spotting how to contain the crowd effectively was the main challenge for me. I did like that the extra climber on this one is purely to release the lemming that frees the blocker, rather than a 2nd worker that turns the first around.
Spoiler
Given the piece limit this is a surprisingly big level :lem-shocked:
I like the way the glider lemmings act as double-edged sword here, if you aren't careful about what path the crowd takes the gliders might just float on over the turning point (or the exit)!
Spoiler
Very challenging level which I needed to come back to solve, but a very clever solution :thumbsup:. I have included an extra near-solve replay (saves all but one) which is roughly where I got to before coming back to this one.
Two areas in particular proved challenging on this level: (1) how to contain the crowd enough (2) how to rescue a lemming from the button area more than once (or at least once without the jumper). I was quite fortunate that I stumbled across the timing in my near-solve replay quite early on which showed that I could platform across to the middle area, whilst simulatenously continuing a digger underneath, but it took my quite a while to realise that I didn't need to assign the climbers immediately.
My only nitpick is that it isn't very clear that you can navigate the area under the steel without using a platformer. If this is the intended solution it would be clearer if the platform was thicker (or the steel a few pixels thinner) to give a few more pixels space to work with, though I appreciate the rulset restriction has an impact here.
Spoiler
I like how the updraft was used as both a tool & obstacle simulatenously on this level :thumbsup: I needed to work out how to sneak a glider through the updraft on the way forward, whilst allowing the rest through on the return trip.
Spoiler
Nice 1 of everything level :thumbsup:
The central terrain island gives a surprising amount of options to consider and work through. I did notice in one attempt that mining from the right to release the crowd would allow a glider into the other exit, but in the end I found a solution using exclusively the right exit without assigning the glider, so hopefully this is acceptable.
Spoiler
This is a nice looking level even with the piece restrictions.
I solved this one by sending a worker over the steel to build the path for the rest of the crowd, I didn't end up using the blocker so managed to save all though it feels from the level name I still took a roundabout trip so maybe this is fine. I liked that the solution on this one requires that you partially construct the end area, but doesn't allow you to completely seal things up or platform from that island.
Spoiler
My first attempt here assigned the glider and cloned that lemming which meant it couldn't hit the button - holding the glider assignment and using a floater instead is a nice detail.
I managed to save 1 over the requirement here, but I'm guessing that was timing & the save requirement is a bit lenient here to allow using the bomber on the other ball if needed?
Spoiler
1 second to spare :scared:
The climber assignments jumped out quite quickly - I liked slider+floater combo to switch directions. My first attempt fell short of the time limit as I did not spot that I needed to use the laserer to speed up the 2nd crowd as they don't have time to bounce off the 2nd forcefield. This is a good time-cruncher puzzle, very short and every second counts :thumbsup:
@Apjjm
Intended solution! :thumbsup: And the "nearly" was exactly what I wanted to block.
I totally agree with the nitpck here! I really need those few extra tiles though to either make the steel thinner or the floor thicker. This will indeed be the first thing I do to this level when including it in a pack! ;)
@ApjjmR2: Intended! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Ah, you fell for my trap of not using the laserer :laugh: You will not finish on time without it. That's why the time limit is there, because otherwise it will go unused. And yes, a successful solve will always leave you with just 1 second remaining. I be surprised if anyone manages to find a way to finish with more than a second left.
Also, you can jump from the top platform instead to get past both the block and trap trigger and bombing the trigger away. In this way, there's a bit more leeway in the bomber placement. However, the way you used the bomber to avoid the trap is fine too. I'm not too bothered about blocking this out, as it would simply require that I lower the large steel block and small block together until it's not possible to bomb in the way you did, because it would also blow through the floor due to not enough height from the jump, though I think it would then either be splat height or close to it for the left entrance. The key realization is that you must go through the trap, as attempting to bomb anywhere else or in any other way other than the way you did it or the intended solution would result in them splatting or falling off the bottom of the level.
In any case, thanks for playing my R2, the replay, and the feedback! :thumbsup:
Apjjm's solution to my R1 was entirely acceptable.
The solution to my R2 is very different to Armani and I's... but it does still use every skill, so I'll tentatively keep it as an alternate solution. I'm satisfied with my R1 and R2 being relatively open-ended.
@Apjjm
Both of your solutions to my levels are backroutes but I've made easy fixes to them.
@Apjjm As much as I hate to be "that guy," I made a V3 for my R2. I spent quite a while debating over whether to accept your solution or not, because it's really not that far off, but while it is decently clever in its own right, it misses just enough of the tricks I intended that I decided to update the level. Sorry :(
@Apjjm not quite intended :( I moved the force field a bit to the right so you cannot release the blocker and break the floor with a single miner anymore.
I resolved all the updated levels ;)
Decent Default Design
attached two solutions. The second laserers in both of the solutions are quite precise, so I'm not sure if this is intended.
Not much to work with
This feels good now :thumbsup: I use every skill.
A Roundabout Trip
This feels intended ;)
A Digital Switchover
Now I use most of the skills and both groups reach the exit at the other sides. :laugh:
The Lemming Calculator
My solution almost has been unchanged. I still have lots of leftover skills :sick:
@Armani
R3: Oh, you sneak :( It's definitely difficult to backroute fix from the likes of you. For V3, I've shifted the far left rope trap over to the right slightly, as well as replaced one of the rope traps with a fire trap. Solution will likely become more obvious now, but probably more precise than I wanted it to be at the same time :P
@Armani - this is quite a nice solution but still avoids some of the things I ideally would like to see in a solution, so will probably be updating the level a little more.
@Armani
One solution is exactly intended and the other an acceptable alternative. Good job! :thumbsup:
Sadly to remove that precision on that one assignment I need to place additional tiles - so that is reserved for after the contest.
@Armani Still not quite. Your solution misses a few of the things I wanted you to do, and as a whole, it stems from a dumb oversight on my part. :forehead:
V4 is out now. I shifted and swapped some terrain around, and I removed one of the Climbers. My original intended solution used both, but I now realize that from V1, the second Climber is completely unnecessary, and there's no good way to enforce its usage without drastically modifying the level or adding an unnecessarily strict time limit. So it's gone! This was a much less easy fix than V2, let me tell you. :P
resolved updated levels ;) (two replays for
A Roundabout Trip)
A Roundabout Trip
My second solution seems intended as I used all the skills. :laugh:
A Digital Switchover
No leftover skills this time! 8-) Hope my solution has some of the things you would like to see :crylaugh:
The Lemmings Calculator
I used most of the skill this time(but not all :() The level is much better now and requires careful thinking on how to let lemmings fall down safely.
@Armani That is much closer to the intended solution, and a clever solve. I was very tempted to keep this but it feels just far enough away that I have updated things again :evil:. I think this update makes things a bit harder so am thinking about dropping save requirement down to 54 + adding talisman for 55, will think about this.
Potential spoiler on intended solution (but pretty vague)
Spoiler
The main thing I'm looking for in the intended solution or acceptable solution is how the two halfs impact eachother, I've felt the sliders haven't done quite enough yet.
Well, the update made the level a bit harder but now I have more leftover skill :evil:
@Armani
R3: Getting closer but not quite there yet, as you correctly guessed. For V4, I shifted the pi symbol over, as well as the trapdoor that's to the right of the flamethrower over some more, although the main source of the backroute was the pi symbol. I still don't have a hopeful feeling that this will finally enforce what I have in mind, but let's see. You're not that far off from the intended route, though.
Thanks so much for the compliment on this level! :thumbsup: Definitely requires far more thought on the route to take, but certainly nothing you can't handle. Thanks also for the replays and your perseverance through the multiple updates! :laugh:
@Armani thanks for resolving multiple times - your solve is incredibly close to the solution I found and is certainly an acceptable variation - great solve :thumbsup:!
Spoiler
The jumper you had leftover allows sending a slider ahead to avoid needing to find the platformer timing with the monitor crowd. I think it is possible to complete this level with a slider and blocker leftover (If a backroute appears with that extra blocker I will probably re-add the gap under the plug again).
In general there are quite a few transpositions of skill assignments that work on this level, but it feels like any solution that does the following is acceptable:
- The sliders should handle the lower pillar area & cross-over the climber crowd to the computer when neither exit route is completed
- The climbers should solve the pillar using the constructive skill assignments you used
- The exits should be used in the order you used them
In the earlier iterations I was trying to avoid needing to assign a stacker at the climber pillar. However, I didn't realise a jumper covers the same vertical height as two stackers, which opened up ways to delay the crowds "switching over" and how that otherwise complicates grabbing the pickup skills.
@Armani Second replay is indeed intended. Apparently I didn't test every possible pixel to assign the Builder on. V5 is out and should hopefully enforce all the tricks I want. :evil:
two replays for The Lemmings Calculator;)
The pi symbol seems still problematic.
I've attached my rule 3 solutions. I found this quite a fun rule to design for - lots of creative looking levels on this one.
1-A Digital SwitchoverSpoiler
My level :lemming:
This solution has a couple of leftover skills. There are quite a few ways you can swap skill placements and still find a solution that works out (though it may take an extra blocker or jumper). I do wonder if it is possible to save the other blocker given a more permissive exit. I couldn't find a solution that manages this though - otherwise it might have been a talisman.
The idea to do a computer themed level actually came from the music which I heard before designing anything. I thought the monitor shape would be an interesting challenge to try and make with the original styles, and i was pleasently surprised how useful the eraser peices were in making the shape - they usually are deliberately not visible!
Spoiler
I found this surprisingly tricky & I ended up needing to come back to this one. I realised quite early on I needed to send at least one lemming down the left of the level, but assigning the laserers in the submarine had quite a few configurations. At the end of my first attempt I had a solution that was one short of the save requirement because I completely missed that I could clone the 2nd laserer :forehead: - Fortunately I spotted my mistake quite quickly when revisiting!
Great job on the visuals for this one :thumbsup:. The solution on the interior of the submare was fun to work out and the combination of laser, cloner and basher was fun to execute. In terms of other feedback, I do wonder if the long digger assignment could be adjusted somewhat into an alternative terrain configuration that is quicker to navigate.
Spoiler
Nice puzzle! The limited destructive skills really force you to be effecient with the path the crowd takes on this level. I completely overlooked bashing through the top of the submarine which meant a lot of my attempts were a skill short. I ended up trying to make continuing a basher through the bottom of the submarine work - though I probably should have realised this was not the inteded path as It avoided the big ramp in the middle of the level. From the updates topic I am guessing this was something that was fixed already, but it would be nice if some of the gaps were widened a bit more to make it extra clear you can't extend a basher with a single builder.
Great work with the visuals on this level :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Very nice looking level & idea for the object! I like how the skill assignments (in particular the glider) feel a bit like sending pin-balls through the machine too. The solution to this followed a clean logical path, where as soon as I realised I should drop the crowd through the pinball area the other overflowing lemmings could be assigned the necessary skills along the way to make sure they got to places in time to save the crowd. This was a very fun level to play and solve.
Spoiler
Excellent job with the bubble tileset :thumbsup: - the preview image alone on this looks fantastic!
I think I probably found this the most difficult of the rule 3 levels - despite the large number of available skills they can very quickly run out. The area on this level that gave me by far the most trouble was getting past the clamp-stand effeciently. I felt there had to be a reason the upper edge of the clamp-stand wasn't steel - though I do wonder if the steel could be raised a bit to make the jumper assignment more obvious that it could work - as spotting that you need to do this to let a slider past is already pretty well hidden!
Spoiler
Nice job with the curves on the pipe shape - I imagine that took quite a while to eraser out!
My first attempts on this tried to wedge the neutrals & lemmings together within the hatch by immediately assigning a stoner and trying to stack on either side, but too many lemming snuck out for that to work. I then realised I could send the last half of the crowd over - but dismissed this approach for quite a while, as I didn't realise I could use the stackers to get back over the miner tunnel.
Spoiler
I really like the choice of object(s) on this level. I thought it was really creative that machine claws were holding the pickup skills and that the item drop point was made functional by use of a teleporter :thumbsup:
This was a fun level to solve, with the main difficulty for me being around when & how to get into the 2nd claw machine to collect the skills. There is a bit of subtlety to this, as the lemming still needs to be able to climb up afterwards to collect the digger!
Spoiler
I wasn't expecting this terrain layout!
I decided to go for the gold talisman on this one - I've probably said before in level feedback that its refreshing to see levels that offer multiple distinct interesting solutions.
Spoiler
I know you've said before on discord that you are stronger in making level puzzles over the visuals, but I think this looks great :thumbsup:
In terms of the solution, It really help to not overthink the start of this - instead I let the lemmings do what it felt they natural-ly needed to do. My first attempts tried to send the right crowd down the outside of the calculator, but this quickly got lost in something complex - and I figured the solution would be rational. It turns out the letters for the left crowd were integral to the solution, and it was important to differentiate where the platformers could be placed in order to effeciently solve for x allowing me to substitute in the spare skills elsewhere in equation.
Math puns aside, this was a satisfying level to solve and was a good challenge!
@Apjjm
Perfectly acceptable :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Spoiler
There's one thing different between your solution and mine: I sent 4 lemmings to the left(you sent 3) and I used a bomber to break the wall in the digger pit.(you used a laserer) And with the leftover laserer, I saved the blocker by releasing him from below with the leftover laserer.(You didn't use a bomber at the digger pit and this is why you don't have to save the blocker!)
Overall, you took the intended route and your solution has all the intended tricks in it :thumbsup:
QuoteIn terms of other feedback, I do wonder if the long digger assignment could be adjusted somewhat into an alternative terrain configuration that is quicker to navigate.
That's a very good point and I 100% agree with your opinion. At first, I considered making the wall hollow and giving several floaters instead of one digger so you don't have to do the long digger assignment. But that was not satisfying for me visual wise. :( Luckily we have the fast forward and time skip buttons in Neolemmix at least :crylaugh:
@Armani
Spoiler
Rule 2 - I've uploaded V3 of this level to prevent a backroute from Apjjm. A good attempt, though :P
Rule 3 - Nice solution! :thumbsup:
@Apjjm
Spoiler
Rule 2 - That's a backroute, I'm afraid!
Rule 3 - Nice solution! :thumbsup:
Apologies for my delayed responses! :)
@Apjjm
Your solution to my rule 3 wasn't exactly intended. I've updated my level to V2.
@tanx
basically same solution but I adjusted a bit to the latest version ;)
@Armani and Apjjm
R3: Apologies that it took me a while to get back to either of you on your solutions to my R3, but I honestly needed to distance myself from the contest levels, my own included. I was stressing out over these solutions that are backroutes to my R3, and indeed especially in Armani's case the second solution is closer than the first, but all 3 solutions are backroutes. For V5, I've shifted some terrain around some more, as well as added a couple more flamethrowers. When in doubt, block and kill them with fire! :evil: Joking aside, once again I'm not super confident about this new version, as it's so hard to backroute fix against the likes of Armani :( With this newest update, it should be much harder to figure out how to get down safely, as almost anywhere you go the Lemmings will encounter a ka-splatty end :P Even if it still doesn't 100% force the solution I have in mind, I would think it at least gets much closer than it has been. Let's see, though. Fingers crossed :laugh:
@Apjjm Perfectly acceptable, and actually decently close to my original solution. :thumbsup:
I'm pretty happy with this level being somewhat open-ended, especially since (so far) it seems that no matter the route, all skills must be used; it's just where they're used that changes. And I think that's pretty cool. ;)
Finally got around to checking replays and having a go at these levels! Note that I didn't have a massive amount to time to spend on solving, I was able to give these about 10 minutes each. Comments:
Rule 1
Insert Coin Choose Lemming - Way too inaccessible for me, unfortunately. I tried a few things but nothing seems to work. I can get a lemming down the main drop safely but can't find a way to both secure the drop and get that lemming back over to the teleporter. No-solve.
Infiltration - Got closer with this one but couldn't solve it within the time I had available. I'll probably come back to this one because I could see a few possibilities.
The Four Corners Of Cloud Seven - Another one I can see a solution for but didn't have enough time to put it together. I'll come back to this one.
No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That! - Managed to make some progress with this but kept running out of skills. Another one I'll likely come back to for a final attempt.
Lemsicle - I thought I had this one cracked, but I can't see any way to get in position to bash underneath the blocker so this one's ultimately a no-solve.
Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission - I'm happy to report that I managed to rescue 2 lemmings on this level, so it's the closest I've come to solving any of these! :lemcat: I'll certainly come back and have another look at this one.
@Armani @Apjjm - Your rule 1 solutions are intended. The additional Jumper is to allow for slight variations, but you both managed not to need it for your solutions. Nicely done!
attached my new solution to the final level. :D
looks good although I'm not 100% sure
@Armani
Getting closer again, it seems, but I can't have you shortcutting the left side the way you did, which is similar to Apjjm's solution :evil: Looks like I thought the fixes I made to one part of the level I thought would take care of that, but I will have to make sure to kill more birds with one stone instead of just focusing on one part of the level to fix when backroute fixing my own levels. For V6, more fire! It's the only change. Luckily I don't think the addition of it made the left side look too out of place, the placements of everything else just happened to already be perfect :laugh: My own intended solution does not break as well, so I didn't need to tweak anything in my replay.
The basic idea is similar but now I use shimmiers to actually let some lemmings shimmy something 8-)
@Armani
R3 - Your solution is now about 98% intended. I've uploaded a V7 that I think will do the trick now. A sigma symbol is added, along with some more traps/water. I've also locked the RR to prevent any funny shenanigans you might try with it :P The number of lemmings and number to be saved were also reduced.
resolved 8-)
Armani
R3 - This is definitely getting restless on my part. One final change for V8, which is shifted the tilde symbol over, added more flamethrowers, and made the shimmiers pickups. If it still doesn't force the solution I have in mind, then there isn't really anything else I can do to fix it up, I fear.
This solution is very similar to what you said was 98% intended :)
@Armani
R3: First off, let me start by apologizing for my vent in my previous post. I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes because I cannot backroute fix against from the likes of super talented solving people like you. As a result, my frustrations prevented me from fixing my level with a clear mind and conscience. I don't know about you experiencing these emotions whenever you need to repeatedly fix backroutes for your own levels, but this is exactly what can happen after a certain amount of different versions of the level. At least for me it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level. However, that's no reason for me to take out my anger on you. In addition, you're not the only person who has repeatedly backrouted my levels, though you do hold the record for sending me the most backroute solutions out of anyone who has played my levels. In any case, rather than get frustrated by it, I should be thankful (and I am, thank you for being persistent in resolving too) for you sending me such solutions, as it goes to show how I didn't carefully consider every approach a solver such as yourself might take to the level. It also tells me that I'm apparently not as good at backroute fixing as I thought I be, which means I should heavily consider getting someone to pre-test them or I just need to come up with better designs and solutions which aren't as prone to backrouting, as magnificent as my puzzles are. Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.
Second, I think I finally see now which skills have been the major cause of the level being plagued by backroutes. So, for V9, as much as I hate to, I made both gliders, a shimmier, and a builder pickups. I've also moved the shimmier pickup to a different location. I honestly hate using pickups myself to fix backroutes, which is why I try to avoid using them for so long, because my main concern is that they make the level easier than I intended. At the same time, I think based on feedback I've received from you for my levels, I've been proven wrong about my own levels being a lot easier in spite of the pickups.
Finally, if the intended solution is found for V9, I may consider fixing up the level visually in a future update, as some of the things that were added in earlier versions might not even be needed anymore and honestly they started making my level look more of a mess :XD:
No problem! 8-)
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of :crylaugh: Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot. :lem-shocked:
I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now 8-) The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers. ;)
Quote from: Armani on April 27, 2022, 05:32:32 AM
I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now 8-) The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers. ;)
Finally, that's 100% intended! :thumbsup: I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed my R3. Based on the feedback you gave me on Discord, I will release an update not to block your solution since it's intended now, but that will remove some things that are no longer needed, as I hate how it has now become more of a visual mess than it should be :sick: I might also think about possibly reverting some pickup changes, but I'll need to think about it some more.
Spoiler
I really like how the timing works out perfectly, such as laying that one platformer brick in order to save the 4th lemming from one of the right entrances on time, and I think you're right that the locked RR does that perfectly. Also, I'm quite fond of using a platformer to raise the wall on the right side high enough to contain the far right entrances, it simply appears that I didn't consider that the shimmiers could be abused to skill cancel and make the timing work out so that it's not necessary to. Finally, I like how it's half you keep the crowd moving and the other half you contain the crowds: Left entrances you DON'T contain the crowd, while the far right entrances you do, at least in the intended solution :laugh: As you saw, it was very hard to enforce the platformer to contain them, but that's because I didn't use pickups to fix that part, and you already know that I hate using pickups as a way to fix backroutes :P
Thanks again for letting me know that the solution's still very well-hidden despite the pickups! I was worried that they make the solution way too obvious now, but once again I've been proven wrong there, and you were the perfect person to ask feedback for on that :)
Quote
No problem! 8-)
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of :crylaugh: Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot. :lem-shocked:
Ah, good to know that it isn't just me who gets frustrated after a certain point with so many versions of a level for backroute fixing. Still, as I said before that's no reason for me to take out my frustration on you, as you were very helpful in showing me different ways that it could still be backrouted that I didn't think about or consider a player might try.
Thanks again for all the replays/feedback! :thumbsup:
A hodgepodge of replays; a couple of them are
most definitely backroutes.
Armani's "Insert Coin, Choose Lemming"
I absolutely loved this level! It's got such a unique and interesting concept, where only one worker can be out at a time, and you've gotta figure out the order in which they go in addition to everything else about the solution. That's so cool! And this level gave me one of, if not the biggest eureka moment I've ever had playing Lemmings when I realized where the Slider needed to go. :thumbsup:
DireKrow's "Infiltration"
Neat little level. Very much an efficiency puzzle, where figuring out what to do isn't too difficult, but figuring out how to do it is a different story. I liked how the two groups of lemmings end up reuniting to finish up the bottom area. And figuring out how to space the lemmings properly so the Disarmer can do his work was a nice challenge as well. :thumbsup:
IchoTolot's "The Four Corners of Cloud Seven"
A nice level where you gotta figure out how to get everybody where they need to go, how to make them all useful beyond that, and how to keep them from dying. I particularly liked how you keep the Climber alive. :thumbsup:
Kindshadow3's "Atmospheric Breach"
This is 1000% cheese. Seriously, my solution is just a completely janky mess, with abusing Digger mechanics, a pixel-perfect assignment, and a leftover Platformer. :P I quite liked the music though!
tan x dx's "Not much to work with..."
Pretty sure this is cheese. I didn't use the Glider, and my solution uses an unintuitive pixel-perfect assignment, shortly followed by a frame-perfect assignment. Yeah... Move the exit a single pixel left and my plan is foiled. ;P
Totally fine solution! Good job! :thumbsup:
@The Tomato Watcher
100% Intended :thumbsup:
I'm glad this level gave you a eureka moment. I didn't expect this level to be a hit.
@Armani
A nice variation on the intended solution. Accepted. :thumbsup:
@The Tomato Watcher
I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution! :P
Quote from: ∫tan x dx on May 02, 2022, 03:42:18 PM
@The Tomato Watcher
I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution! :P
I realized that, but I checked the version numbers on page 1 of this thread and it matched the version I had. But uh... that was pretty dumb and lazy of me... oops. :(
@Tomato
Yet another new solution for my R1. So far, everyone who has solved it (including me) has used a different solution. They're all acceptable to me because it checks the boxes I wanted to see, yours included. Nice job.
Quote from: The Tomato Watcher on May 02, 2022, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: ∫tan x dx on May 02, 2022, 03:42:18 PM
@The Tomato Watcher
I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution! :P
I realized that, but I checked the version numbers on page 1 of this thread and it matched the version I had. But uh... that was pretty dumb and lazy of me... oops. :(
Well, there was no new post for the V3 update so I missed it.
As I always state in the update topic: "2. Make a new post for a new update; do not edit your most recent post." ;) Then delete the old post.
4 more levels solved + a re-solve! I don't smell any backroutes here. :D
Apjjm's "Roiling Clouds"
I think I did a little more than I needed to here. I got the general idea of what the trick was but I spent a very long time trying to figure out how I was going to do it. The way keep you gotta keep building platforms off of other platforms while the Basher is bashing through all of them is honestly super cool to me. Nice job! :thumbsup:
Armani's "Tightrope Planet"
A very good twist on the trailblazer setup. I kept thinking I had to assign a permanent skill right away or send two lemmings out or something, but the worker is actually used in quite a clever way here. And I quite like solutions that require to be careful about when exactly you assign a permanent skill, mainly the Climber in this case. :thumbsup:
Crane's "Looks simple enough..."
I tried to approach this level in a lot of different ways, but I'm quite fond of the one that ended up being correct. It took me a little too long to figure out how to free the Blocker without the Basher needed for the wall, but oh well. :thumbsup:
DireKrow's "Ancient Lemmarine"
Quite like the submarine, visually. The routing for this one was sooo hard for me to figure out, until I realized that the decorative-looking void space below the starting area was actually quite useful and saved skills in the long run. Nice level. :thumbsup:
RE-SOLVE: tan x dx's "Not much to work with..."
This feels intended now. The way you get one lemming over the square block without the Builder needed to turn the lemming around afterward is super clever! :thumbsup:
@The Tomato Watcher
An intended solution to the level, nicely solved :thumbsup:
Spoiler
You can extend off of almost all of the towers in the level in a similar way to your solution. I think pretty much all of the solves so far that I've seen have used the towers slightly differently which is kinda interesting to me!
@The Tomato Watcher
Awesome solution :thumbsup:
Spoiler
As you pointed out, the most important thing is that you have to use the climber skill at the very last moment. If you assign the climber skill to the worker lemming from the beginning(which is very common in other levels :P)you will always one skill short or one short of the save requirement!
I'm surprised how such a simple level of mine is causing a lot of head-scratching and appreciation of the solution!
Quote from: kaywhyn
I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes ... it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level
I have a rule when it comes to backroute-proofing. If I have to fix a level more than 3 times, then it's not worth it. At that point I either accept that the level cannot be easily backroute-proofed and ditch it, or keep it as a backrouteable level.
Of course, since your level is a contest level then I guess it's harder to limit the number of fixes, especially if you're going for a "one solution only" type of level. It's understandable that you want your level to play out exactly as intended. Still, there has to come a point when you have to accept that the level is probably either too convoluted or too unfixable to keep coming back with more and more versions of it.
Quote from: kaywhyn
as magnificent as my puzzles are
Even if you say so yourself! ;P
Quote from: kaywhyn
Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.
Yes! This is a way of thinking which I like to promote as much as possible. Not all levels have to be "intended solution only". Too many of these, in fact, just gets tiresome. In my book, a level which provides two or three possible solutions is more enjoyable, offers repeat play value, and is more likely to be solvable by more people. There is nothing wrong at all with designing levels with this in mind, and in fact I'd say it's a better mindset to have as a designer than the "single solution only" mentality, which often leads to levels being full of awkward and off-putting design, even if they are super clever.
All rightie, I've updated my R3 one more time to, let's say, improve the visuals, as it started to become a mess in some areas. Here, removed some terrain and some flamethrowers. I'm also taking a big risk here with removing the glider pickups, but if the level gets broken again with future solutions I will restore them. Finally, shifted the top left hangman trap over to the right a bit.
Quote from: WillLem on May 06, 2022, 08:25:53 PM
I have a rule when it comes to backroute-proofing. If I have to fix a level more than 3 times, then it's not worth it. At that point I either accept that the level cannot be easily backroute-proofed and ditch it, or keep it as a backrouteable level.
You make a good point. However, the problem with this is that it assumes that the level's super prone to backroutes to begin with and whose solution cannot be completely enforced. How about in the case where levels can still be completely fixed up with an intended solution with, say, 4 or 5 versions? In that case, to you, do you think it's worth it to fix it up after 3 versions you limited yourself to? Maybe you've already implied that the levels whose solutions can be completely enforced are fine here and don't have to be limited to 3 versions and hence I'm probably reading into it too much. Some levels take way more versions than that before the intended is finally completely enforced as well, but again it all depends on whether one wants to accept alternatives or adapt the intended.
Quote
Of course, since your level is a contest level then I guess it's harder to limit the number of fixes, especially if you're going for a "one solution only" type of level. It's understandable that you want your level to play out exactly as intended. Still, there has to come a point when you have to accept that the level is probably either too convoluted or too unfixable to keep coming back with more and more versions of it.
I'm in agreement with there being a certain point where the level isn't worth it to fix up anymore, though it's sad to say that I haven't followed this just yet. Let's say that I still haven't gotten there yet with stopping after a certain point because I've often notice that eventually it just becomes a huge visual mess if one isn't careful :P
Quote
Quote from: kaywhyn
as magnificent as my puzzles are
Even if you say so yourself! ;P
Obviously this is subjective, but let's say that the problem is either in the way I've designed them, or, probably more likely, the various parts of the intended solution I have in mind that causes some of them to be constantly riddled with backroutes :P Not to mention that I still seem to be in the whole fixing one part of the backroute but neglecting another area and hence I'm not quite there with killing multiple birds with one stone just yet :laugh:
Quote
Yes! This is a way of thinking which I like to promote as much as possible. Not all levels have to be "intended solution only". Too many of these, in fact, just gets tiresome. In my book, a level which provides two or three possible solutions is more enjoyable, offers repeat play value, and is more likely to be solvable by more people. There is nothing wrong at all with designing levels with this in mind, and in fact I'd say it's a better mindset to have as a designer than the "single solution only" mentality, which often leads to levels being full of awkward and off-putting design, even if they are super clever.
Yes, I know how you're all for more variety with, say, sprinkling in open-ended levels with one solution only ones, as in the former one is free to craft up any solution that solves the level. Let me make it clear that I certainly have nothing against such levels, whether I make them or from others. Instead, I prefer making one solution only levels, although I'm training myself to make the latter too. So far, I have one completely open-ended level, my R3 from the previous contest. It's just that if I do end up making open-ended levels, I want to make them interesting ones too ;P It can be hard to make them either easy or hard but still interesting.
In any case, it's good to see and read your approach when it comes to making levels and how you backroute fix levels. Keep in mind everyone is different when it comes to either one. Again, I'm trying to break away from some of these bad habits of mine in level creating/backroute fixing, but it might take me a while.
Your input is nevertheless insightful, and certainly some key points I will keep in mind! ;)
Quote from: kaywhyn on May 07, 2022, 03:49:05 PM
How about in the case where levels can still be completely fixed up with an intended solution with, say, 4 or 5 versions? In that case, to you, do you think it's worth it to fix it up after 3 versions you limited yourself to?
Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.
So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can
still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.
In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ;P). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.
The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.
Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I
reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.
As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)
Some more replays! These ones had me stumped for a while. :forehead:
Kingshadow3's "No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That!"
The solution was overall pretty clever, though I have a minor gripe with there not being a clear or intuitive way to space the lemmings properly. Maybe I'm just dumb and didn't see it, but it kinda felt like you had to time skills in a certain way early in the level to get things to line up multiple in-game minutes later. Still not bad though. :thumbsup:
EDIT: Looking at Icho's solution in his video, I was most definitely making it way harder on myself than it needed to be. I withdraw my minor gripe. Sorry! :forehead:
WillLem's "It's All A Matter Of Spacing"
A quickly paced level with a lot of moving parts. I figured this one out little by little, and not necessarily in order, but it was satisfying to see it all come together. :thumbsup:
Armani's "Underwater Hijackers"
Another fantastic level with creative and clever use of the Swimmer and Laserer! I was stumped on this one for aaaaages before I figured out how you could get to that little water pit in the bottom of the sub in a useful way. Seriously, I tried so many routes. :forehead: It really showcased the magic of different skills interacting with each other. :thumbsup:
IchoTolot's "Starlight Pinball Zone"
Very frantic level here, with the lemmings constantly in immediate danger with no immediate way to contain them. Trying to keep the crowd safe and prepare the way for everyone at the same time was quite the challenge! :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
And now you've managed to solve all my 3 contest levels in intended ways.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Yeah the little air pocket inside the submarine is the key to the solution. + you have to figure out that you can use laserer tunnel to keep basher going and that the cloners play critical roles in this level. ;)
Intended @The Tomato Watcher ! Great job!
Also my YT playthrough is up!
Rule 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF6n9Y_UMeI
Rule 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBROSP7As54
Rule 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hexwzDkUd8
My Own levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaGtIsY98c0
@Ichotlot All your 3 solutions are 100% intended :thumbsup:
And I'm uploading my intended solutions and some alternative solutions I've received here for those who want ;)
@IchoAwesome! Icho has solved all of my contest levels with either intended or acceptable alternatives! :thumbsup: More specifically, R1 is an acceptable alternative, while R2 and R3 are 100% intended, with the former swapping a couple of skills around from my intended one, but it still has the essential parts of the solution in it, so no changes needed for R2 or any of my entries for that matter.
Icho's solution to Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission
As mentioned, this is an acceptable alternative. In the intended solution, the normal lemming and climber lemming swap exits, i.e, the climber goes back to his own upper left exit, while the normal lemming goes to the upper right one. Where you used a platformer and a builder to close off the gap to the right wall, I use the swimmer/glider to platform to the left to get over land and it will always be done in such a way that the climber will be able to get over to the other side while the platformer is busy, and thus he climbs up the wall back into the miner tunnel he made at the start. For the regular lemming, after you bash to release him with the swimmer/glider, he laserers, shimmies into it, and builds at the edge of the miner tunnel. This will be enough to have him be able to jump to get over the green square block at the top. Then I have him build once he's at the edge of the upper platform, release the blocker with a walker once the staircase is able to catch him, then he turns around back to the right after hitting the green square block, then floats down to the island just above the bottom right area. Other than those differences, you managed to still need to use all the skills, and as I don't want to be picky here with completely enforcing my solution, your solution is perfectly fine in my eyes. Nice job! :)
What I really like about the solution I came up with is how I varied the ways to reach an exit: Simply shimmy to get over a water gap to drop down the other side of the exit safely (top left), platform up the water gap (top right), fence and swim (bottom left), and finally laserer and then jump into the resulting tunnel to get over to bypass the trap that's right in front of the exit (bottom right)
Thank you for the compliment on the visuals for my R1 :thumbsup: In addition to this, I must say that I absolutely enjoyed making the level and I love the different parts of the solution I came up with for it! I think I even like this one more than my R1 from the previous contest even though that one I'm quite proud of too. This is also the entry that got me to finally see the light on how very useful the laserer is. Even though I have played plenty of levels featuring the skill from Lemmings Uncharted, I wasn't yet convinced of its usefulness and hence still thought that it has no place in NL. However, I guess sometimes it's enough to simply make your own levels using the skill in order to see its potential! So, I have to say that I'm now in full support of the laserer skill even though it's been in stable for about a year now.
Icho's solution to The 10 Piece Puzzle Rush
Intended! :thumbsup: The climbers and jumper can be swapped and hence the player is entirely free to pick which side to use them on. My solution uses the climbers to go out the right, while I use the jumper to get past both the small block AND the trap so that you have more leeway in the bomber placement. However, the essential tricks are still there: Using the slider to laserer through the huge block to get the final two lemmings to the exit on time, platform the gap at the bottom from the right side with the slider, and bomb away the trap trigger so no one dies to it.
Have you noticed that I'm starting to incorporate the level design element of "keeping the crowd moving, you do not contain them at all" into my own creations? I know you use that a lot, and I tend to like these! ;)
Icho's solution to The Lemming Calculator
Intended! :thumbsup: The trick of using the platformer to contain the right entrances took a lot of backroute fixes because Armani kept finding a way to avoid using that. I was inspired by Pacifism 41 of your United pack there of using a platformer to add height to the 6 pixel wall to block the Lemmings from stepping out. I got flustered at some point, but once I calmed myself I realized that the major sources of backroutes were the builder and shimmier, and so as much as I hated to, I had to make them pickups. The only reason I avoided using them for so long is because I hate using pickups to fix backrotues, because I always have this belief that they make my level far easier than intended. However, I've been proven wrong by both you and Armani, as the both of you have told me that my R3 is still quite difficult.
I have to apologize for my solution hugely ripping off of your R3's. However, I think it's clear that my intended solution is still vastly different from your R3's intended one that I didn't 100% take your idea completely. For example, my level doesn't use sliders, but it does use shimmiers and bombers, which your R3 lacks. Also, the level incorporates a combination of "keep the crowd moving" AND contain the crowd, where the former applies completely for the left entrances, while the latter applies completely for the right entrances. Otherwise, there's so many possibilities here but if you don't take the intended route, then you'll always end up running into the problem of someone arriving too soon and splatting or getting into danger.
I think the main reasons why the level is hard is because the route for either side is not obvious at all (being able to descend down safely inside the calculator), as well as how the skills need to be used are completely non-obvious. So, I think this is another case of me underestimating the difficulties of my levels, but I'm far from being a unique case, as this is a problem that pretty much every designer has due to how it's hard for the creator to judge the difficulties of his or her own levels. A really good example is when I give feedback to Armani! Plenty of times he thought a level was easy but I tell him it's much harder than you think it is or vice versa. I also recall giving you similar feedback when I played through United or even some of your contest entries.
With this, thank you so much to Apjjm, Icho, and Armani for the positive feedback/compliments/replays for my levels! :thumbsup: Once again, I have Icho to thank here that I even got into level designing, as it was his encouragement to me to give it a try and without that I think I would had simply been content with just solving levels! ;P
As for everyone else, keep the replays coming, as I always love seeing more solutions to my own levels. Not to mention others trying and attempting to get them solved ;) I think I will get around to playing these levels myself in the next few days or so. Just been super busy lately.
Quote from: WillLem on May 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM
Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.
So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.
In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ;P). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.
The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.
Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.
I've never thought of it this way, with each fix lowering the overall quality of the level and the way you've quantified it, but I like the way you explained it here. Interestingly enough, I've kind of felt the same way with each fix as well, although some certainly way more than others, particularly the ones where I kept fixing it up rather than stop after a certain amount of versions. At the same time, I haven't yet gotten into the realm of accepting alternatives because, well, the designs I came up with don't really allow it, mostly due to the skillsets provided. However, as mentioned I have an open-ended level from the previous contest, as well as a couple here where I'm fine with alternatives, so I apparently started allowing other solutions starting with this contest! :P
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As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)
I think you hit it spot on here with the ones you mentioned with being adamant of enforcing the intended solution at all costs. In my case, as I mentioned the problem is that my designs haven't really allowed for any alternatives, although some of mine in this contest do! I'll certainly be more than happy to explore and get into designs with open-ended solutions in the future, but at the same time I want to make sure they're interesting puzzle-wise. I certainly have nothing against them, and I welcome them with open arms just like I do with almost any level ;P From what I've seen and read around here, it's easy to make either an easy or hard open-ended level, but the challenge is making them interesting too!
Icho's solutions to my R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives. R3 is essentially the intended solution.
Yep, intended solution IchoTolot - well done. A nice little classic level, as you said!
@Icho
Just seen your videos! R3 is perfectly acceptable, but R2 is a backroute. Updated version posted! :)
Is this better? ???
@Icho
A very interesting interaction between laserer and stacker, but still a back route, I'm afraid :)
Next solution. :)
@Icho
And next patch! :P
This feels intended now. :)
You are indeed correct! Nicely done! :thumbsup:
All rightie, I've recorded my playthrough of all the contest levels. Here are the links:
Rule 1: https://youtu.be/60X_dAgTi4I (https://youtu.be/60X_dAgTi4I)
Rule 2: https://youtu.be/kQuhjw1cXNc (https://youtu.be/kQuhjw1cXNc)
Rule 3: https://youtu.be/ZRCa12izYwE (https://youtu.be/ZRCa12izYwE)
My contest levels: https://youtu.be/iSN3ANILHss (https://youtu.be/iSN3ANILHss)
I've also attached my entire replay collection, as well as replays of the intended solutions for my levels. There are two replays for WillLem's R3, one is for the gold/bronze talisman, while the other is for the silver talisman.
As a whole, I thought this collection pack had really tough levels in contrast to last few contests. In particular, the R3's took the longest to solve. Also, if even top solvers like Icho and Armani thought my levels were hard, perhaps I should consider dropping the notion that my own levels are easy, relatively speaking, to all the other ones.
It seems that I badly underestimate the difficulties of my levels. This being said, DO NOT expect me to go easy on the difficulty if I ever decide to make a level pack in the future! :P I think it's becoming more and more likely that I will consider making one, having been inspired and encouraged by some forum members here :thumbsup:
R1 FeedbackArmani's Insert Coin, Choose Lemming R1V1
Nice level here involving releasing one lemming at a time to forge different parts of the level. It's clear that either the floater or the slider need to be the first ones to start. However, I think it's clear enough to see that only the slider can get to the exit, which therefore leaves the floater as the only possibility to start. The hardest part to see I thought was the platforming and then stacking to get the climber up the top of the level on the right side. I originally tried other things where the trap is, but that would always get me into trouble with saving the climber to get him into the teleporter back to the starting area. Even after I had the level pretty much all figured out, I ran into being a skill short at the end, which was due to not doing the platformer/stacker part right.
DireKrow's Infiltration R1V1
Surprisingly difficult level, where it's not obvious at all how to distribute the lemmings on the top and bottom halves. In particular, I kept thinking to use the climber to platform up the water gap at the top where the button is on the far right side, but that seems to be a complete red herring. I also kept thinking to use a platformer at the top to save a shimmier. Also thought to use a basher on the pillar at the bottom left, but then you can't get a disarmer to the trap before everyone else on the bottom right, as well as get to the button on the far bottom right except for getting the spacing between the disarmer and climber just right to get the latter past the very fast triggering teleporter. Overall, nice level and puzzle!
Kingshadow3's No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That! R1V2
Probably not as hard as Armani's or Icho's Cloud levels, but still tricky and challenging. The first half wasn't too bad, but the second half was where I struggled on various parts. In particular, I kept trying to do some very tricky timing so as to try and get to the OWW before the climber and glider go over the top, but it seems that one of them will always get into trouble before that happens. It took me a while to see that the timing isn't needed at all, and in the end my solution is almost the same as Icho's, the only difference is where I used the platformer and miner at the top, both on the left side of the OWW, as well as used a basher to stop the climber/glider from going over the top on the right side.
The Tomato Watcher's Lemsicle R1V2
I think this is the start of difficult levels from you :P I made the bottom harder than I needed to, where there was only one builder position to stop the climber from going into the water pit at the bottom left. It depends on how the swimmer bashes to leave the raised area to do so. I originally kept thinking to release the blocker from the right side, but that turns out to not be the best way to go about the level. The hardest part to see was just before the ice steam blower trap on the left side to bash and then build to the left. The jumper section at the end is a bit repetitive for my liking, but that's just me, where I'm not generally a fan of levels where the same skill has to be assigned in a short amount of time :P
WillLem's It's All A Matter Of Spacing R1V1
Surprisingly tricky level despite being a somewhat small and short level. I like how you used the neutral Lemminas here! I also like how the title is an homage to "It's All A Matter Of Timing" from ONML, although the skillset has no connection to it, as it's not a builders only level :laugh: I like how the updraft is used to get everyone down safely, as well as to slow the descent of the floater to give the digger enough time to get through the floor. I have a jumper leftover, but that's because I had the worker Lemmina jump over the gap before platforming. Otherwise, doing it from the other side I would need to interrupt her with the jumper so she doesn't turn around.
R2 FeedbackApjjm's Roiling Clouds R2V1
I spotted that extending a basher with platfomers needs to be done almost right away, but how to do so was very hard. I tried many things before I was successful, such as trying to go over the top. I even tried to see if I could bash underneath the level to release everyone, but the basher would always stop before I want him to, and combine that with laserering so that he could continue down the slope. I was able to save multiple skills in contrast to Icho, who just had a platformer leftover. Apparently it's possible to solve without using either the walker or blocker too! Perhaps this can be a talisman ???
Armani's Tightrope Planet R2V2
This is very similar to a Cloud level you posted in the random level sharing topic, so this was a quick solve for me. However, I did try building up to the platform at the start and mining in such a way to break away the staircase and free the blocker, but this would always result in the crowd arriving where the worker is too soon. Instead, it's a red herring completely.
Crane's Looks Simple Enough R2V1
Nice level. The hardest part here was to see how to place the blocker to trap the crowd and to release him with a digger later. I like how the digger is assigned the climber to get himself back out later. I thought to maybe extend a basher through both OWWs, but this doesn't work as you won't have enough skills to solve the level.
DireKrow's Steep Beescent R2V1
I consider this your hardest level in this contest. There were plenty of things I've tried that didn't work. In particular, sometimes gliders would go over obstacles and get into danger or the crowd arrives too soon and splats or gets into danger. It was a bit annoying at the end to think to have the level solved but then the gliders shoot past the exit because of the builder staircase, hence it's necessary to stop him early with a skill. I use a miner to cancel out a digger at the bottom. The level reminds me very much of "Abysmal Descent" from your DireKrow files.
Kingshadow3's Atmospheric Breach R2V2
The main challenge here was to get past the updrafts. I do have a platformer leftover thanks to taking advantage of the digger mechanics :P
tan x dx's Not Much To Work With R2V6
Very nice level and solution! :thumbsup: In its current form, this was surprisingly hard. I backrouted an earlier version similar to Icho. It took me a very long time to see the stacker and laserer trick in order to step onto the stack at its maximum height. Eventually, I saw that the skill shadow of the stacker reaches a pixel above the OWW, and that's when I realized that you can platform over to the barrels from it. As a result, this reminds me very much of the level Non Sequitar from LemRunner, except a basher is used to be able to platform. I probably made the time limit tighter than it needs to be though. I kept thinking to send everyone to the right exit, or to destroy terrain before assigning a glider to get to the bottom left exit, but these would just leave you a skill short or get everyone into danger before the path is ready.
The Tomato Watcher's A Roundabout Trip R2V5
Very nice design and visuals! Didn't take too long to figure out, although I think I could had avoided the blocker if I had platformed lower. I also tried other things, such as bashing the floating platforms at the bottom to release the crowd, but this would take too much builders.
WillLem's Minimalemism R2V1
Nice level, although I haven't seen the splat pad in this style before. Doesn't take too long to figure out. I saved 1 over the requirement ;)
R3 FeedbackApjjm's A Digital Switchover R3V4
I really love the design here, especially the computer half of the level! :thumbsup: I found this level to be hard but it's a really good one. The part that took me a while was the platformer pickup on the right outside of the computer. I sacrificed a climber there. Took me a while to figure out how to contain either group. I probably made my solution far harder than it needed to be. Good puzzle involving the switching of the groups to the other side/exit.
Armani's Underwater Hijackers R3V1
Another great design and hard level. I consider this one your hardest level out of your other contest entries in this collection pack. Sure, I thought R1 was hard too, but it wasn't that bad. I figured out the left side very quickly with bombing and then digging, but what took a very long time was how to get inside the submarine in the most efficient manner. Yes, I tried going in from the far bottom right where it's possible with just one bomber, but then you can't release the neutrals. I really like how the cloners are used here: For a laserer, and for the basher twice, once on the original and another time on the clone. Also using a laserer tunnel to keep a basher going. Seems like it should work, if it works for a fencer tunnel. Some of my earlier attempts had me fiddling around with the right side at the top, but it should had been clear that it's pointless, as you cannot get low enough to do the rest of the level if you do due to the water blocking access everywhere.
DireKrow's Ancient Lemmarine R3V2
Surprisingly difficult level where you will not get the level solved if you don't take the intended route. I kept trying to extend a basher along the bottom with builder staircases, but then I would run into problems with reaching the far rightmost button. It's not possible to jump to climb to get to it without using two builders near the exit. The hardest part to see was bashing to the left in the starting area and then release them with a basher to the right at the bottom. Also building at the top and then bashing to the right to go over the top. Otherwise, I kept trying things around the middle like bashing twice and/or building/jumping to get the rightmost button, but this would result in too many skills being used. It's interesting how you and Armani had the same idea of making a submarine as your object for R3
Kingshadow3's Mad Dad's Chemical Research Dept R3V2
Very hard level that took me a long time before I got it solved. Nice visuals, but unfortunately I wasn't too much of a fan of this level due to the many nuisances in the level. In particular, stopping climbers from going out to the left and hence using too many jumpers, as well as the lasers not being friendly for builders to make further forward progress. Then again, I did make my solution very complicated with a lot of heavy timing and pixel precision :P
tan x dx's The Treachery of Lemmings R3V1
Surprisingly difficult level despite being short. I originally tried to send 3 climbers through the needles trap, but as it turns out even if you have lemmings stack on top of each other it will always kill 2 lemmings. So, I guess that's the major difference with the lizard trap from the Rock tileset, where it will be possible to just have one lemming die to it when stacked behind each other, but not so for the needles trap. Even if this did work, you would lose 1 too many. Nice level which uses the interesting mechanic and interaction of a slider and stoner. I already know this trick from playing Uncharted, I just didn't think or see to use it for a long time in order to resolve the problem of turning back to the left with the normal lemmings.
The Tomato Watcher's The Claaaaaw... R3V1
Nice "Toy Story" reference here, and it's one of my favorite Pixar films! :P Somewhat hard, although the hardest part to see here was to use two jumpers at the start to get the basher pickups. I have a basher leftover, but that's because I used timing to get the climber past the teleporter :P Even then, this doesn't look like a backroute, so I would think it's fine here
WillLem's Bosom Buddies R3V1
When I first saw this level, I was thinking in my mind, he did not just go there :laugh: Nice boobies, although I can't imagine the pain a woman would have with melons that huge. Although I don't care for talismans in general, the level's short enough that I decided to go for them. As a result, I attached two replays, one for both the gold/bronze and another for the silver.
I have put together a quick video with the inteded solutions for my R2 & R3 levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0eo9cwJ55o
@kaywhyn - Great solutions to both my R2 & R3 levels :thumbsup: - The R2 level uses the intended element in the solution and saving both the blocker & walker was nice. The R3 whilst not the intended path is certainly acceptable. The way you contained the crowds was very different to my solution, and I am pleasently surprised as to how many variations I have seen in solutions to this one.
@ichotolot - Great solves for both levels too :thumbsup:. The R2 level uses the intended element - the way you used the blocker was very similar to the initial concept of the level but I ended up adding a different skill instead to make things easier to execute. The R3 solution again much like kaywhyn doesn't handle the crowds as intended but certainly uses the skills in an interesting way so is an acceptable alternative - the only part of this solution that I might have considered changing is how the platformer is used after the pickup-skill beyond the monitor - though I think it is too late in the contest now for me to want to make changes (and also I kinda like that this is a tricky level with a variety of different solutions).
@Apjjm
Just posting to confirm that a save 56 for your R3 is indeed possible if the right exit has a limit of 26, not the left exit as you mentioned in the video description. Replay attached.
Very nice find kaywhyn :thumbsup: - I did wonder if it was possible when I saw how icho contained the left crowd but I couldn't spot the bit about grabbing the pickup skill.
@kaywhyn
R1
You actually made the beginning even harder for yourself than you thought you did. :P You can just have the Climber build on the right side and the Swimmer build on the left. No Basher manipulation required. Also, I just thought playing stepping stones on the snowmen's heads was fun. :P
R2
I thought about trying to definitively enforce the Blocker, but honestly it doesn't matter that much and I'm fine with allowing some flexibility in my levels. :D
R3
Nice job spotting that reference! ;) Honestly, in its current state, there's quite a few ways to approach the level and I really don't think there's a "wrong" way to solve it, so good job! :thumbsup:
@The Tomato Watcher
R1: Yes, I'm well aware that I overcomplicated the start significantly! :P That's the thing when it comes to solving levels in the game: A lot of the time you cannot take into account every single thing a player might try, especially with very messy and fiddly methods with heavy timing elements. Most of the time, designers tend to keep intended solutions very efficient and clean and hence the messy stuff from the player is all self-inflicted. As for the repetitiveness at the end, again it's not you, it just happens to be something that I'm not a fan of when skills have to be assigned repeatedly in a very short amount of time :P
R3: Lol I'm probably the biggest Pixar/Disney fan you will come to know! :P "Toy Story" happens to be a favorite of mine, so yes the reference in the level title was quite obvious to me ;) Especially if you've existed on this planet for as long as I have :P Yea, I'm an oldie and am nearly twice your age :laugh: I've watched nearly all of them growing up, though there's still a handful I haven't seen.
Regarding kaywhyn's solutions to my levels...
R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives that have been seen before and are close to the originally intended solution. R3 is the intended solution.