On the Quirky set
Overall an enjoyable set of levels that don't just rely on using 2 blockers and a trailblazer like so many of the originals. All have a different feel to them.
Levels that are easier than their placing -
Spoiler
Prelude to me is on a par with the very beginning levels of this difficulty, and I think easier than some of the Lovely levels. AS my replay shows, its about at Tricky difficulty for the original Lemmings
Spoiler
The Razor's Edge goes under the category of "very easy if you know how, otherwise very tough", making it hard to rank. I was aware the bridges planks go through very thin walls so got this first time.
Levels that are harder than their placing -
Spoiler
None stuck out as horrendous - Exit Stage Right and Path to Mahiman took the longest but looking back don't seem that tough. I think I got a bit lucky with Tower of Babel as well
Other notes
All Around the World - the method I have attached in the replay has pretty exact placement of skills.
Spoiler
I'm guessing the intention is to jump over the sanctuary and mine down the other side, thinking about it?
Another Lix in the Wall - I noticed in another thread there was mention of losing a platform for this one as it was quite a fiddly method somewhere. My attached solution uses a platform but isn't fiddly at all. Is mine the intended method?
In terms of favourite levels for aesthetics, I seem to go for the 2 extremes - Insane Steve seems to favour very minimalist looking levels that appear much more horrible than they really are to complete, whilst Michael S Repton's levels feel more true to the art style of the original games and add a touch of nostalgia.
Favourites to play in particular were Tribute to Flagpole Sitting, Box Set, The Rainbow Road, The Final Sacrifice, and Every Which Way But Loose.
Quote from: Wibble on August 11, 2020, 05:04:25 PM
In terms of favourite levels for aesthetics, I seem to go for the 2 extremes - Insane Steve seems to favour very minimalist looking levels that appear much more horrible than they really are to complete, whilst Michael S Repton's levels feel more true to the art style of the original games and add a touch of nostalgia.
It's interesting that you pointed out that one author created minimalist looking levels. Insane Steve's not the only designer that had a penchant for these; one of the DMA designers did a similar thing. I'll mention this in more detail in a new thread.
Thanks for your comments! Also interesting to read your list of favourites - some of them are favourites of mine as well while some are very much not. Makes me happy there's such a variety of levels in the pack, for everyone some levels that speak to them.
Good luck on Cunning!
Some comments on individual levels below:
Prelude - There are definitely other solutions to this level as well. I believe this is one meant to be open-ended, but wait for Proxima to confirm whether your solution is a backroute.
Another Lix in the Wall - I don't know if Nortaneous had a specific solution in mind. There is definitely a variety of solutions, and some of them are not fiddly at all. I guess it's all a matter of how hard you try to push your initial idea through.
All Around the World
Spoiler
That should be the intended solution, and I don't think there are alternative solutions? This trick necessarily needs some precise skill placement, but at least the square/rectangular blocks help you find the correct placement very easily. Generally the aim is to avoid precise placement/timing whenever possible, but especially in the later levels you will have some necessarily precise assignments here and there.
Tower of Babel - Interesting solution! This one is quite open-ended too, and there are definitely less 'risky' solutions out there as well.
Quote from: Minim on August 12, 2020, 09:01:07 AM
Quote from: Wibble on August 11, 2020, 05:04:25 PM
In terms of favourite levels for aesthetics, I seem to go for the 2 extremes - Insane Steve seems to favour very minimalist looking levels that appear much more horrible than they really are to complete, whilst Michael S Repton's levels feel more true to the art style of the original games and add a touch of nostalgia.
It's interesting that you pointed out that one author created minimalist looking levels. Insane Steve's not the only designer that had a penchant for these; one of the DMA designers did a similar thing. I'll mention this in more detail in a new thread.
It's not just the minimalist look so much as the minimalist and impossible look together that does it for me. Levels like the Little Miner Puzzles are minimalist too for example but appear more accessible at first (even if they do then have twists that show how well designed they are).
On the Cunning set
Levels that seem easier than Cunning
Once You Pop You Can't Stop
Spoiler
Reminds me of the Tricky level in the original that is a reskin of Fun 5? Except you don't even need to get the timing right.
Cry for me
Spoiler
Basically a remake of Land of Unicorns and Rainbows with an extra trapdoor added and lots of extra skills
Skulls Sludge and Steel
Spoiler
Back to trailblazer mode. Looks good though.
Erbalunga -
Spoiler
like the idea behind it but it is a much easier variant of It Takes Time to Build
Tick Toxic -
Spoiler
Couple of skills to spare, completed first time (which is rare for me)
Levels that seem harder than Cunning
Again, none stick out as needing to move to Daunting as such. I found The Ob3lisk (missed opportunity on the title, surely The Obelix?) very fiddly with needing to issue so many floaters. Some Like to Run took me a long time to figure out, and Snowball Battle was tough too, but both are I think in the right band. Mental Process requires a bit of a trick in there that it took me a while to see, same with Lix Cannon.
Favourite levels:
Jacob's Ladder - looks great
Spoiler
Took me a bit of time to find a solution and it was a bit of a guess as to whether it would work, but I'm guessing it was the intended method as I really can't see any other way
Seven Pillars of Lixdom - classic looking level and a great puzzle.
Labyrinth of Persia - looks great and taught me that
Spoiler
torches burn
It takes time to build
Spoiler
Stalling galore!
I also enjoyed Under the Rainbow and Mental Process.
A few other level attachments - Lix Cannon and LMP3 both felt a bit fiddly with how I did them, and I am curious as to whether my solution for Under the Rainbow is the only one
Spoiler
I don't think you can bridge the big gap and have enough skills to survive it all?
Cry for me -- I'm not sure I see the resemblance.
Skulls Sludge and Steel
Spoiler
At some point, all states of lix (e.g. splatter, burner, tumbler, ...) were assignable skills, and this level originally was designed to showcase that the
burner can be a useful skill. I tried to adapt the level to work with imploders instead, but evidently I failed. I think the two stalactites that are close to each other should maybe be replaced with a buzzsaw, see attached. That said, it doesn't really make that much of a difference to the level in the end.
Erbalunga -
Spoiler
I never realized. I've never seen Erbalunga as a stalling level, maybe because somehow there's more to figure out here (i.e., which group does the building) than in the other level. It takes time to build was added much later, and so I didn't have the association that it's quite similar to a level in its vicinity.
Tick Toxic -
Spoiler
This one is quite open-ended and various ideas work.
QuoteI found The Ob3lisk (missed opportunity on the title, surely The Obelix?) very fiddly with needing to issue so many floaters.
It kinda goes together with the level The Mon0lith, which will come much later. They were both part of Insane Steve's Cheapo pack, though the Ob3lisk there was a humongous vertical level. I'm actually not sure if my down scaling is really in the spirit of the original level, I wanted something intimidating looking, but I think it wasn't possible to replicate the solution for the original level, so I went for something else. It's not one of my better levels and turned out more annoying to execute than I hoped, but I guess it's alright in the spirit of variety... Why do you think The Obelix is a better title here? Maybe I'm missing something.
QuoteSome Like to Run took me a long time to figure out.
I believe this is actually a backroute. Let me tighten the spawn interval (attached) to hopefully fix it. We should probably cross-check with Minim though as I'm not sure I know all nuances of the intended solution.
LMP3 is intended, there's a bit of timing to work out at the end that's hard to predict and thus might need a few tries to get right.
I'm not aware of any other solutions to Under the Rainbow.
On Obelix - I just meant the fact it has the word "lix" in and sounds like obelisk. Nothing more than that really! That said I didn't know it linked to another level, and now you mention that I understand the reason behind the title!
On the comparison made for Cry For Me (both attached)
Spoiler
Ignoring the extra trapdoor for Cry for Me for a moment, both levels have you send a climber up to get a bridge/platform to the sanctuary, and then bash through to link the 2 lower trapdoors and bridge to cover the bashed hole. The main differences are that Land then has you mine through the block whilst Cry lets you just assign climbers to all Lix. Cry then adds the 3rd trapdoor which just requires a bridge to the top tier then bashing through to win (and you have floaters for any lix that slip through before the bridge is built.) Just my opinion but I think the difficulty level for these 2 is really similar
Should add as well that any comments I make are intended as observation rather than criticism, I like all of the levels so far in their own way.
On the Daunting set:
I haven't completed them all yet, there are 7 left to do, all of which I have looked at but can't do yet - namely Tribute to Benny Hill, Derailed Level, I'm Gonna Make you Mine, Passing Engagement, To Destroy is to Construct, Two For His Heels, and The Lix Who Japed. So I suppose they are the ones I think are the hardest!
Will post 6 levels at a time with comments and my solutions.
Rhapsody - Nice and relatively easy opener, just needed a few tries to see which skills were employed in which places.
Round Trip - Completed 1st attempt, the easiest level in this set?
Death or Glory - Took a few goes to see what was going on here, I like the design on this one.
Over My Head - For me, it was for a while! This one is up there with my favourites for daunting.
Spoiler
I like the slightly unintuitive idea that the runner isn't actually sprinting ahead, its a regular walker who is used for the foot race to get the bridge placed
Backslash - Minimalist level showing a useful trick, I like it.
Spoiler
Should have saw the hint in the name a bit quicker
Now This is Fun - Bit of a slog this one, I feel it could have been compacted a bit whilst maintaining the same puzzles? My replay looks very un-optimised, I'm sure I could have used fewer skills to solve it in a similar way.
Quote from: Wibble on August 18, 2020, 11:34:15 AM
Round Trip - Completed 1st attempt, the easiest level in this set?
I agree that this level is easy compared to the others in this rank because the solution is indicated by the layout of the terrain.
Congrats on beating many hard levels fast. It's interesting that "Passing Engagement" and "The Lix Who Japed" seem to give you trouble since for me they were on the more doable side whereas other levels that you seem to have solved gave me much more trouble.
Nice to see that the levels you're stuck on are mostly in the later part of Daunting. At least the ordering isn't completely off. :)
(The very last level is special in a way and expected to be a bit easier I'd say.)
Round Trip: This is one of Insane Steve's Cheapo levels, I remember it giving me a good amount of trouble back then (not sure why), which probably explains its original position in the pack. It already got down-ranked quite a bit, if I recall. Funnily enough, "A Towering Proposition" from Cunning (EDIT: Just realized it's actually in early Daunting) is also one of Steve's levels and in the Cheapo pack it's in the last rank, while here it didn't even make it into the second half of the community pack. The baseline difficulty for levels has significantly increased over time...
Over My Head - it's a minor variation (slightly different digger position) on the solution I know, but very much in the same spirit. I agree, the level looks simple but is not so obvious after all.
Backslash - if I recall you can save one extra (if you want) :)
Now This is Fun - I agree, I'd say it's a bit in the spirit of Save Me from the original game. Daunting and quite a bit of work to pull off. Not so much my flavor of level either, but it adds some variety I think.
I have completed Derailed Level, The Lix Who Japed, and To Destroy is to Construct now, so just 4 left.
Variety Day - Took a while to figure out
Spoiler
Mainly trying to ensure that the climber was not the lix used as the blocker
A Towering Proposition - Completed 1st attempt, definitely among the easiest of the levels for this set.
Feel the Pressure - A combination of ideas from earlier levels. Replay has a random basher and a long wait at 1 point for reasons I do not recall!
Merge Sort - Really like the idea behind this one, very clever! Classic case of a level where trying things out for a bit lets you see the trick.
A Soulful Bounding Leap! - Nice to see a level using jumpers in a less obvious way. The idea on how to complete was found quickly but tweaking skills around to actually execute it took longer.
Go West - Very easy when you know how - it took a while for me to know how however!
Spoiler
For a while I got caught up trying to mine to the bottom and use the terrain to bridge back up
Alternative Route Required - Trailblazer fare with a limited skillset to choose from.
Spoiler
And all of the skills used, at least for my go
This Lix is Your Lix -
Spoiler
a race of sorts. Getting the timing of the jump to turn round at the end of the platform and not hit the blade was a little fiddly
Tribute to Benny Hill - My attempt is below, it saves only 4 lix though is a couple of skill short of saving all of them. I think I have some elements of the solution correct but am missing something. Feels significantly tougher than all the levels around it, though it could be a very easy one where I am missing something simple. Hints would be appreciated at this point :)
Spoiler
The title implies that having the climber chase/be chased by the rest, most likely in fast forward, to synch with them is the right idea. I just can't see how to synch all of them. Or indeed where the parachutes come in - they don't open from any tradpoor or from any bridge smaller than 2 bridges.
Railroad Plot - Seemed relatively easy for the difficulty, this only took a couple of goes.
Derailed Level - On the other hand this one took a lot of attempts.
Spoiler
For a while I was using the cube to block the other lix instead of just digging. I also didn't consider having any lix other than a climber building the platform, trying to go from right to left using the curved motion lines of the train. I feel a little cheated that the derailed train is not at all part of the solution, at least, not part of mine.
Lixes in Motion - Nice timing puzzle.
Spoiler
Took a while to think of using a different lix to the digger to build the bridge, thus saving skills and time
Quote from: Wibble on August 19, 2020, 07:32:39 PM
Tribute to Benny Hill - My attempt is below, it saves only 4 lix though is a couple of skill short of saving all of them. I think I have some elements of the solution correct but am missing something. Feels significantly tougher than all the levels around it, though it could be a very easy one where I am missing something simple. Hints would be appreciated at this point :) Spoiler
The title implies that having the climber chase/be chased by the rest, most likely in fast forward, to synch with them is the right idea. I just can't see how to synch all of them. Or indeed where the parachutes come in - they don't open from any tradpoor or from any bridge smaller than 2 bridges.
Following seven hints that should get more spoilery the higher their number is but your mileage may vary. Hope they help, good success on solving the level.
Hint 1
Think about how the parachutes can help you with what you are trying to attempt.
Hint 2
Consider how many builders you have available.
Hint 3
Think about how the parachutes affect the movement of the Lix.
Hint 4
The falling movement of the parachute lix is slower than of the non-parachute ones.
Hint 5
With the amount of builders available you can gain enough height to make use of the parachutes.
Hint 6
You are right that clustering with the use of fast forward is the key.
Hint 7
It is possible to solve the level without the climber.
Thanks, I got it off the first hint and read the rest after. Sometimes you just need a bit of a nudge - knowing that a skill I had ruled out was necessary was enough. :) The thing I was missing was
Spoiler
there is a ramp to increase the height from 2 bridges to increase the height to a parachutable one
Lets just say I'm glad that this game has a fast forward!
This Is Too Much Stepping Stones - I like the puzzle element of this level but it is fiddly
Spoiler
I only just had enough bridges, and felt a little lucky needing only 2 bridges at the top of the level
Jack In the Box - Spotted this one relatively quickly, a nice minimalist level.
Spoiler
One of my failed attempts on Backslash helped as I inadvertently made a "cube" from a builder there
Slipping - Took a while to see the trick for this one, again it came from solving a different level
Spoiler
segmentation fault
Slipping Again - This one was easier than Slipping
Spoiler
But if the order were reversed this would be harder - once you have the trick for Slipping a lot of the puzzle is done for you
Lix Ferenda - When I saw Lix Lata I thought that was a level that looked a lot harder than it was, I see now that this remake is the reason! I feel from the replay I was not fully optimal and more can be saved.
Spoiler
On other failed attempts I platformed from the top to trap all the lix in the beams to the right of the trapdoors, but chose to go lower so that I could get a few to the lower levels without parachutes as I was exploding and blocking with the 3 given so couldn't see how to complete the level with a high platform
Segmentation Fault - Sad as it was to see all those lix splat, I liked this level a lot. Took a bit of time for me to see the trick
Spoiler
building a platform on a digger space to reduce fall distance , which helped with other levels
Cornerstone - Really liked the design of this, made me feel dumb for not getting thow to do it at first then smart when I worked it out! I think the hallmark of a good level in general is that it should either look really simple and actually be tough, or look horrible until you see something to simplify it. This fulfills the first of the criteria very nicely.
Repeating Patterns - As a maths teacher I approve of the fractal. Nice to see a level where you need to carefully think about where you use your turners.
The Crimson Room - Looks easier than it is I think - seeing where to save on skills to have enough I found quite tough. This was one of the later levels I completed.
Narbacular Drop -
Spoiler
Solving Lixes In Motion helped with this one as it gave me the idea of having a lix fall through before the digger finished to complete the excavations to the left - plus having the digger face the other way to the rest of the lix for the bridge. I originally was trying to turn a lix round by mining the metal ,then on 1 attempt saw 2 had turned round so the miner was unnecessary.
Duality - I don't know if my solution is intended but can't see another
Spoiler
That "bridge" only just reaches
BOGOF part 2 - Nice puzzle, I like that the differences to BOGOF 1 in skills are subtle yet make for such a different solution.
I'm Gonna Make You Mine - From the replay I think I need at least 2 more miners. Or there is some technique that I am missing that saves skills. I don't see how to improve there.
Spoiler
I don't know if there is some way to avoid using them on the lower platform?
Passing Engagement - Feels like this should be an easy level with only 4 skills. I think 1 of my assumptions in the spoiled text must be incorrect but don't know which one.
Spoiler
1. The platform has to be used to fill the gap, and is not wide enough to fill a gap at any other place.
2. The platformer will not be able to turn around on completion of their job.
3. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from right to left will be unable to turn back again, so that option is out.
4. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from left to right will be OK. I can also use a miner on the ridge before the first drop to keep all lix trapped before the platform is complete. However, I then have a single basher to undermine the blocker, and if successful no way to turn the basher round and save them.
5. If a blocker is used after the first drop then undermined, there is still no way to turn the basher/miner round or make them stop. I thought of trying to have the basher undermine the blocker then run out of land to bash but that can only work on the flattish ground towards the start of the level.
Hints for either or both of these levels would be appreciated, though I have a feeling the first one is more a case of just optimising the plan I already have more.
The Ring of Fnargl - The polar opposite of Passing Engagement, a level that looks horrific yet was completed first attempt. I like the overall appearance of this one.
Hellfire - I liked this level, a nice puzzle requiring you to think about how to save on skills.
Gomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute - Not sure if my method is the only one?
Spoiler
Those bridges only just fit again, but when I tried the route through 4 pillars then 2 above I found myself a bridge short
Rumble to the Bottom - As with the level above, feels like my solution may not be the only one?
Spoiler
Having spare skills always makes me wonder. Also felt a little more conventional than a lot of the other levels, having access to blockers to easily stop the crowd feels almost like cheating compared to the methods needed in some other levels
To Destroy is to Construct - I liked this level, took a while to figure out
Spoiler
Mainly as I was trying to work out how to get all lix to the part of the level above then dig down
Two For His Heels - My best attempt is attached. I can see how to get an extra turner if that helps, but I am either a digger or miner short and don't see how to get that.
Spoiler
I also tried
- using the bash on the far left of the thin blue line instead of where it is placed in the replay and digging straight away from there
- so the digger can then be stopped with that spare turner, and then climb up so I don't need the digger/floater later,
- but she just can't get there even nearly before the top digger has finished (unless you use both turns, in which case there is no benefit to this)
- Also using the miner at the bottom to ensure all lix go left doesn't work as you either undermine some going right or hit steel before finishing the job.
The Lix Who Japed - Took longer than it should have
Spoiler
For a while I was using the digger on the right hand edge and using a bridge + bash with the second lix to get them to the bottom - thus wasting a bridge I needed later.
Just Stop the Bleeding - Took a few attempts but mainly a case of working out how few skills you can get away with using on each side.
Quote from: Wibble on August 21, 2020, 09:11:13 AM
I'm Gonna Make You Mine - From the replay I think I need at least 2 more miners. Or there is some technique that I am missing that saves skills. I don't see how to improve there. Spoiler
I don't know if there is some way to avoid using them on the lower platform?
Passing Engagement - Feels like this should be an easy level with only 4 skills. I think 1 of my assumptions in the spoiled text must be incorrect but don't know which one.
Spoiler
1. The platform has to be used to fill the gap, and is not wide enough to fill a gap at any other place.
2. The platformer will not be able to turn around on completion of their job.
3. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from right to left will be unable to turn back again, so that option is out.
4. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from left to right will be OK. I can also use a miner on the ridge before the first drop to keep all lix trapped before the platform is complete. However, I then have a single basher to undermine the blocker, and if successful no way to turn the basher round and save them.
5. If a blocker is used after the first drop then undermined, there is still no way to turn the basher/miner round or make them stop. I thought of trying to have the basher undermine the blocker then run out of land to bash but that can only work on the flattish ground towards the start of the level.
Hints for either or both of these levels would be appreciated, though I have a feeling the first one is more a case of just optimising the plan I already have more.
Hints for Passing Engagement:
Hint 1
Think about what your main problem is and what would solve it and how it could be achieved with what you have (before you).
Hint 2
Look closely at the terrain design.
Hint 3
Does that indicate sth. to you?
Hint 4
Consider your skills in connection with that.
Hint 5
Maybe you can make use of it in the direction you need to.
Hint 6
Have trust that everything works out timingwise.
Hint 7
Think about how you can use the basher in the correct direction.
Hints for I'm Gonna Make You Mine (; they are rather tough to give without spoilering too much):
Hint 1
Think about the fruitlessness of your attempts.
Hint 2
Your solution idea is ingenious but maybe think further.
Hint 3
Maybe try sth. different.
I can give more hints to Gonna Make You Mine if you considered all the hints and still can use some after applying them.
Good success.
Thanks to the hints I have now solved Passing Engagement and I'm Gonna Make You Mine. Just the right level of spoilerness!
PE - Missed something simple! My original plan was correct with 1 small but important tweak.
IGMYM -
Spoiler
I assume its the intended method. Now I know how to makes lemmings turn on bridges without blockers or cubers!
Merge Sort -- I'm happy you like it. :) There was some discussion on where to rank it, as I was afraid it might be too obvious while other players (I think Simon?) got stuck. I'm glad there's also some middle ground.
Quote from: Wibble on August 19, 2020, 07:32:39 PMDerailed Level - On the other hand this one took a lot of attempts. Spoiler
For a while I was using the cube to block the other lix instead of just digging. I also didn't consider having any lix other than a climber building the platform, trying to go from right to left using the curved motion lines of the train. I feel a little cheated that the derailed train is not at all part of the solution, at least, not part of mine.
Spoiler
The train was a late addition -- Simon was unhappy about both levels looking the same and people confusing them, and he felt they needed something to put them apart and make them more memorable. So Simon added the train, which I think was a good idea and achieves this quite well; but that also introduces a red herring. :)
This Is Too Much Stepping Stones -- I have never seen this solution before! I'm sure, somewhat ironically, Insane Steve would be delighted to see this solution.
Spoiler
This level was inspired by an alternative solution/backroute to the original Lemmings 1 level Stepping Stones. Steve turned the backroute into the main route of this new level...and you backrouted it! :D
Cornerstone -- Thanks for the praise! :) I was concerned the level might be a bit fiddly, but maybe it's alright after all.
Repeating Patterns -- This one turned out well by total coincidence. My usual modus operandi for making levels is having a trick in mind (e.g. from a failed solution attempt for some other level), and then building a level around it. I made the fractal and slapped a generic "10 of some skills" skill set onto it, and it turned out that with bashers this makes for a decent puzzle.
Cool to hear you're a maths teacher! Quite a few people in this forum have a background in maths or at least CS, and I've also done a few maths education related things (running maths camps, resource creation, tutoring...). I feel in some way there are quite some parallels in designing levels for puzzle games and designing a sequence of exercises for a maths topic, with exercises (ideally) building on top of each other and following logical progression to deepen the understanding of the concepts (which in puzzle games equates to the mechanics and solution strategies).
Duality -- I believe that this is a backroute.
Spoiler
There is a way of only using 3 bridges at the bottom, and this changes quite a lot about the solution overall.
QuoteGomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute - Not sure if my method is the only one? Spoiler
Those bridges only just fit again, but when I tried the route through 4 pillars then 2 above I found myself a bridge short
You can make the solution idea in spoilers work, you just need to figure out the crowd management. I guess your solution would be considered a backroute, but Proxima should confirm.
Rumble to the Bottom
Spoiler
The reference solution uses the same skill set as your solution, with only one placement slightly different.
Two For His Heels -- You haven't requested hints yet, so I don't want to give a full fledged hint sequence yet (the way Forestidia does it seems great btw), but maybe just one vague starter hint, in case you want to look at it:
Spoiler
Quite a few levels in this rank have been about crowd management where not just the skill placement, but also the timing was of importance.
Quote from: geoo on August 21, 2020, 08:23:34 PMGomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute ... You can make the solution idea in spoilers work, you just need to figure out the crowd management. I guess your solution would be considered a backroute, but Proxima should confirm.
I don't have time to look over all the replays yet (and in any case, since you are still actively playing the pack, maybe it would be better to wait until you are done) but this is quick and easy enough to answer.
The intended route (not the specific skill placements) is indicated in the following spoiler tag, and any other route is a backroute:
Spoiler
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/249723222155591690/746469238096527494/gomenne.png)
Quote from: Proxima on August 21, 2020, 08:44:32 PM
Quote from: geoo on August 21, 2020, 08:23:34 PMGomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute ... You can make the solution idea in spoilers work, you just need to figure out the crowd management. I guess your solution would be considered a backroute, but Proxima should confirm.
The intended route (not the specific skill placements) is indicated in the following spoiler tag, and any other route is a backroute:
Spoiler
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/249723222155591690/746469238096527494/gomenne.png)
Considering the shown route in the spoiler tag Wibble's solution to gomenne is a backroute.
Quote from: geoo on August 21, 2020, 08:23:34 PM
Merge Sort -- I'm happy you like it. :) There was some discussion on where to rank it, as I was afraid it might be too obvious while other players (I think Simon?) got stuck. I'm glad there's also some middle ground.
Older versions of Merge Sort had solid terrain near the sides, it was enticing to make holding pits here. We reranked this from Cunning to Daunting.
Current version has thin floors only, to avoid this red herring. It's possible that the current version is easier. I assumed it's still fine in Daunting, but we haven't re-tested it with new players. I believe it's still Daunting.
Merge Sort is iconic. If one gets stuck here, and then solves it, it produces the rare a-ha effect.
-- Simon
Spoiler
I put the floor in in "This is too much Stepping Stones" as a red herring route on purpose, nice work showing that it can be worked out. 100% ok with leaving that in as an alternative solution. It's harder to do than the intended solution anyways :P
@Wibble: Also, loving the heck out of your comments on the levels in this pack. Been a few years since the harder stuff I wrote for it, but looking forward to your attempts at them :) Honestly a lot of what Lemmings as it was is about is trying to find wild solutions to levels that still work - so if your solution works, it works. I think every alternative route to a level I have written for Lix except for Chasm, of all levels, works. Resort if needed. Also note, backroutes exist for a reason :P
@Forestidia: Same, I'm in weird lurking mode since you've beaten a lot more of the levels I put in this pack so *shrug*
It may take longer before my next level thoughts, I have looked at some vicious levels but only completed the first 5 for now (plus the 10th one, the one with only 1 lix). Still toying with ideas for Two For His Heels, I feel I am close but just not quite there.
I'm guessing from the comments made that the intended solution for This is too much Stepping Stones is
Spoiler
to build a bridge to the top (using blockers to help extend it), bash through the ceiling, and excavate down
Weirdly I wouldn't have thought of that - I think that shows I did the level on the original lemmings just by boringly making 3 well placed bridges!
I'd need more of a think on Gomen and Duality if my solutions are not the intended ones.
geoo - must admit I was thinking if I were to make a level pack my approach would be to think about failed alternative methods for levels and adapt the skillsets so those alternatives are the working method. I have an idea based on Slipping Again, and I could easily adapt I'm Gonna Make You Mine so my original method would work (but the way I ended up solving it doesn't) just by making the top block about half the thickness and removing 5 or so bridges.
And of course making a variant of This is Too Much Stepping Stones where my backroute is the intended method (for someone else to backroute) could be amusing!
Totally agree there are parallels between maths problems (and I suppose CS problems - that one isn't so much my area) and creation/solving of levels.
I have now looked at the first 14 levels of Vicious, all done apart from Changing of the Guard.
Vicious levels 1-6 - First 5 all felt like a jump down in difficulty from most of Daunting. , but that said the first few of each difficulty so far have felt easier than the end of the previous one.
Dividing Three By Two - I like the puzzle to this, the part of the solution I missed for a while was
Spoiler
the blocker - and the idea behind Passing Engagement helped me here
Conundrum - This one didn't take long. I feel the main element to this could have been used as part of a bigger level.
Spoiler
On my first attempt I tried just setting up a sprinter to build the bridge and saw the chas only needed 2 of 3 bridges. Then I just needed to see where to put the 3rd to help
Endeavor - Aside from the US English spelling this is up there with my favourites so far. It had 2 elements to the solution that I have not used before
Spoiler
Timing of floaters to ensure different landing points, and having 2 bridges meet in the middle of a gap)
Low Profile - Completed first attempt, feels more like late Quirky/early Cunning in difficulty. I don't mind having a breather every so often mind ;)
Betcha Can't Save Just One - A few things about this level have me curious. Firstly, is it possible to complete this in any of the 4 sanctuaries? Secondly, the title. It implies to me that the setter is saying saving just 1 is not possible, you have to save 2 or more? Betcha Can't Even Save One as a title would give the impression that you should target 1 only. Finally
Spoiler
given I nuked a spare lix, is it possible to save 2?
Changing of the Guards - Errmmmm.... I don't even know where to start with this one. When I see the solution I'm either going to think I missed something really easy or that its an ingenious level. Maybe both. Not asking for hints yet, I don't even think I've scratched the surface with this!
Spoiler
The only way to make the fall height small enough to survive is to have a floater reach the bottom to make a bridge, so both of those skills are used up.
The only way even with a bridge that the fall can be survived is if you dig in the middle.
The only way you can get an lix from the right hand side involved is by setting up a blocker.
That doesn't leave me with much!
The Last Laugh - Nice stall level. To solve this I learned that
Spoiler
When a climber falls they turn round - usually they have to turn around because they are at the base of the wall anyway.
Elixir - Deciding which way to loop the climber was what made me take the most time.
Spoiler
I was also trying to get 2 climbers together and have 1 explode to fling the other into precise positions - didn't work! Once I saw the idea of using a bridge from left to right on the far wall, to ensure the climbers did not fully climb that wall, I had it.
Lixster Quadrille - Nice level requiring economy of skills.
One-Lix Showdown - Felt a little on the easier side, the terrain governed where to use the skills to an extent. One of the first levels I solved in this difficulty.
Down Among the Dead Lix - A good number of potential red herrings here.
Spoiler
At first I tried to use imploders on the right hand pillar to save bridges, but needed to many for the fall height to be sufficiently lowered.
. Some precise placement required,
Spoiler
The bottom imploder
which at this difficulty seems fair.
Laser Deathroom - Really liked the design and solution of this one.
Quote from: Wibble on August 24, 2020, 04:13:22 PMVicious levels 1-6 - First 5 all felt like a jump down in difficulty from most of Daunting. , but that said the first few of each difficulty so far have felt easier than the end of the previous one.
This is deliberate, and imitates one of the features I found admirable about the original
Lemmings.
QuoteBetcha Can't Save Just One - A few things about this level have me curious. Firstly, is it possible to complete this in any of the 4 sanctuaries? Secondly, the title. It implies to me that the setter is saying saving just 1 is not possible, you have to save 2 or more? Betcha Can't Even Save One as a title would give the impression that you should target 1 only. Finally Spoiler
given I nuked a spare lix, is it possible to save 2?
The title is a pun on an advertising slogan, "Betcha can't eat just one!" and you don't need to read more into it than that :P
About possible solutions...
The level was originally intended to have a single solution, using the third exit only and saving just 1. Three lemmings/lix had to cooperate to enable this, with the far right one doing nothing. But it's long since been known -- dating back to the Lemmix days -- that the level has other solutions; some of these carry over to the Lix remake, although some specifics are different due to precise details of the terrain and different game mechanics. In C++ Lix it was possible to save 2 in the far left exit; I don't know for certain what's possible on this level in D Lix, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if using a different exit and/or saving more than 1 is still possible.
BCSJO - I think based on your spoiler that my method is the conventional intended solution then.
One-Lix Showdown -- This looks like a backroute, albeit a quite smart one. I'm attaching a modified version which (hopefully) eliminates this shortcut, in case you want to look for the intended solution (I don't think it's that much harder though).
Betcha Can't Save Just One
Spoiler
In CustLemm/Lemmix, there was a follow-up level called "Betcha Can't Save Just Three" which I believe was identical except for the save requirement. I'm not sure if the solution there translates to Lix; it is definitely possible to save at least 2 in the Lix version though. Whether you can get to each of the exits is a good question too though.
Earmarked for next release unless namida suggests something else. This One-Lix Showdown by geoo is already covered by Proxima's solution in the proof collection.
-- Simon
Thanks for all these detailed comments! It's nice to see someone having fun.
IMO that solution to Duality is really yucky. (I say that about any solution using builders like that). Putting a small saw half hidden under the steel block may work to fix it? Or readjusting the steel but I think that might effect the good solutions. Readjusting the terrain might have the same problem.
On Two for His Heels;
While I'm not great at giving hints here's an attempt;
Spoiler
-part of your solutions is correct. The part with the digger in the middle column and the climber from the bottom going up there.
Spoiler
-at one point you used two skills to achieve the effect which you need to use only one skill for.
Spoiler
-similar to what geoo said; a lot of timing is involved; especially at the beginning.
Spoiler
-The beginning part is a bit similar to my other level "walk the plank"
On Betcha Can't Save Just One:
In English (at least where I'm from) saying 'can't save just one' can be identical to 'can't save only one' or 'even one'. A lot of words are interchangeable like this. The original level (going back to Custlem) was meant to look difficult to save *even* one lemming,
Spoiler
when in fact you can save more.
The sequel was titled "Betcha Can't Lose Just One". Indeed; the save requirement is 3 and it's identical.
To my knowledge getting to the left most exit isn't possible (that is; I haven't seen any solutions to it) But I think I've seen solutions that get at least one lemming to every other exit.
I can't remember if any of the solutions get all the 3 lemmings to the same exit. I know there are some that get lemmings to separate exists.
I agree that the solution to Duality is, shall we say, inelegant? And I've got a few more inelegant (imo) solutions below too!
Thanks for the hints for "FHH, will look back at that to see if I can finally solve it.
Dances With Lixes - Spotted what to do with this level fairly quickly, the bridging doesn't even need to be that precise as my solution shows. Bit of a breather!
Five For Fighting - One of those "easy if you know how" with few skills levels - my track record on these isn't great but I spotted this one quickly enough.
This is a Stickup - An inelegant solution, I like the level in principle (must admit it felt in style like an Insane Steve level but isn't).
Spoiler
I don't like the use of a digger to stall 1 lix in order to ensure I save enough
The Gr8 Escape - Stuck on this one. My best attempt has I think 35 saved, can't see how to do all.
Spoiler
I also have saved 34 with 2 spare bridges. I think one of the bashers has to be to undermine all of the top lix, but can only get to the right height for this if I use 2 bashes at the bottom, leaving me a bash short if I build a bridge to stall. But if I bridge high enough to require 1 bash to get through, I can't then turn the lix round to get to the point needed to undermine...Weird as this level feels like it should be easier with so few skills - my record on these types of level is not so good.
Trapeze of Weird Blue Blocks - Took ages and this solution is not very elegant making me think it may not be intended
Spoiler
especially the jump/floater used to turn a lix round early and the repeated jumping to ensure the climber was last in the queue at the end.
Toccata - Now there's some familiar graphics - 2 favourite childhood games merged into 1! The only things that made me take a while on this was
Spoiler
using a digger at the start instead of a miner to begin with.
That's now as many levels as I have solved, so Two for His Heels, Changing of the Guard, and Gr8 Escape are the 3 I am stuck on for now. I will see if I can solve the first using the given hints. Back at work soon so won't have as much time, that plus the levels getting harder will make this slower progress.
Finally! Good puzzle overall, I should have seen that solution more quickly.
Spoiler
Once I got myself into the mindset that I had to use a miner only for the second block, and that it also took care of the thin line I got closer. But the real kicker was seeing that it was high enough to chop up a bit of the above scenery, allowing a basher to ensure all lix were facing the correct way!
Quote from: Wibble on August 27, 2020, 05:14:08 PM
Back at work soon so won't have as much time, that plus the levels getting harder will make this slower progress.
It's all good. You've been plowing through lemforum at amazing pace, and are giving quality feedback. Many thanks already!
Proxima prefers easier levels at start of rank
n than at finish of rank
n − 1, and Proxima prefers varying looks/tilesets among consecutive levels. Thus, there is taste to the sorting of lemforum, it's not purely a strict ordering.
Interesting that Changing of the Guards is so hard and a candidate for upranking. I believe I've never solved it either.
-- Simon
Quote from: Simon on August 24, 2020, 08:55:18 PM
Earmarked for next release unless namida suggests something else. This One-Lix Showdown by geoo is already covered by Proxima's solution in the proof collection.
I would consider waiting for Wibble to give the update a try, and/or Proxima's approval, as this was just a quick-fix which I didn't test thoroughly (same for the other two fixes I posted in this thread). I think Duality also warrants a fix.
This is a Stickup -- I think there are a very different solutions, but I haven't found any that I'd consider elegant.
Trapeze of Weird Blue Blocks
Spoiler
An earlier version of this level had a ceiling, and the intended solution was in fact to go via the ceiling (akin to Stepping Stones). I didn't see that though, and instead found a solution that went via the middle, which was meant to be impossible. Steve liked it and removed the ceiling. So basically anything goes for this level, but like with Stickup I feel like all solutions I've found are a bit technical.
Changing of the Guards -- This is another one which seems impossible at first but once you know you wonder why you didn't think of that. :) I made a follow-up "All aboard the Pain Train" which I placed later in Vicious, but I'm curious how you feel about the placement as I don't think I got any feedback on whether it belongs in late Vicious (iirc it gave Proxima troubles).
The Gr8 Escape -- Funnily enough, I remember this being one of the earlier solves for me of tseug's 10-level Lemmix pack. Goes to show how insanely hard his levels are...
Update on Changing of the Guard - I am now at 4 out of 10 as opposed to 1 from before.
Spoiler
A very slight move of the digger had a big effect
. No idea how to get that 5th one though. I did notice there is a thread on this level and read it but do want to complete it the proper way. I honestly would not of thought of that backroutish method mentioned though!
I'm no further at all on Gr8 Escape. Even when I complete it I will still have a bit of a thing about that use of the number in the title. ;)
Thomas the Climber - Slight breather compared to most.
Spoiler
Which of the climbers is Thomas? The one who bravely tunnels and implodes to let the rest escape? I like to think so. Tbh the title made me think I only had 1 climber and I spent most of my planning assuming this, as soon as I saw I had 2 I spotted the solution! I liked the idea of 2 simultaneous climbers than a bash from far away to ensure the other turned round
Buridan's Lix - Not a clue for either exit. Best attempt is there, saving a mere 6. I can also see how to complete it if I had 1 more bridge, albeit saving all on the rhs for that.
Spoiler
Otherwise for the rhs I can't see how to delay the lix to get the double bridge built, and also not spend too many diggers and bridges doing so. And for the lhs getting the digger through and turned round is likewise a problem
I'm back to struggling big time on levels where there are only a few skills to allocate so theoretically the options to completion are fewer. Clever level in that it presents options a la Can't Even Save One so I'm sure I won't feel it is fully done until I can save through either sanctuary.
The Circular Ruins - A relatively quick one to solve, but a lot of rewinding and frame by frame needed for me. A bit like Now This is Fun in that I wonder if the puzzle elements could have been incorporated into a smaller level. That said, the sense of scale makes it feel a bit bigger when you do complete it.
Spoiler
Some precise digging and bridging required, I think if any of the mines, digs, or bridges are a pixel out then it doesn't work?
Merde, Merde, Merde! - I liked this level even though it took a good number of attempts. Whilst the allocation of the first skills is obvious, you then have a lot of different options, some of which looked to me good at first
Spoiler
eg saving the 3rd trapdoor from the left first as its the quickest to do
but don't work. The minimalist art style plus impossible look of the level appealed as I have mentioned for other levels earlier. However, I shudder to think what this would have been like on the old Archimedes version of Lemmings where you couldn't allocate actions when paused!
Alien Invasion - Another one I liked, it looked impossible at first
Spoiler
because I was trying to think about hoe to build the bridge right to left from the sanctuary platform
but was good because it was a short level so each attempt didn't take long.
A Matter of Perspective - I'm 1 lix away, and can get to being 1 lix away using many slight variations on my method
Spoiler
eg switching the bridge and platform, moving the position of the first mine slightly.
My choices are platform on right then bridge on left - resulting in some lix arriving and turning around before the miners are done.
Or bridge on right platform on left, - has to be a walker building the bridge otherwise I can't turn anyone, then the few extra parachutes needed on the right balance out the speed increase on the left
. Only a few seconds out but I can't see how to optimise those.
Any level not completed but mentioned by name here is a level I have been struggling with for some time now, hints of even the vaguest nature would be appreciated. In terms of difficulty level I'd say the rankings are pretty accurate so far (that said, there are a couple towards the end of vicious that I solved very quickly, namely Triangle Inequality which feels more like Quirky rating, and 3.1.1.1).
Quote from: Wibble on September 03, 2020, 07:54:44 PM
In terms of difficulty level I'd say the rankings are pretty accurate so far (that said, there are a couple towards the end of vicious that I solved very quickly, namely Triangle Inequality which feels more like Quirky rating, and 3.1.1.1).
I agree that 3.1.1.1 felt easier than Vicious rank.
Quote from: Wibble on September 03, 2020, 07:54:44 PM
A Matter of Perspective - I'm 1 lix away, and can get to being 1 lix away using many slight variations on my method Spoiler
eg switching the bridge and platform, moving the position of the first mine slightly.
My choices are platform on right then bridge on left - resulting in some lix arriving and turning around before the miners are done.
Or bridge on right platform on left, - has to be a walker building the bridge otherwise I can't turn anyone, then the few extra parachutes needed on the right balance out the speed increase on the left
Yeah needed long to get it solved as well, happened rather by accident.
Hint 1
The solution seems trivial when one sees it.
Hint 2
Think about which lix to assign the runner.
Hint 3
Think about when to assign the runner.
Hint 4
When you build the bridge, does it have different outcomes where you start?
Quote from: Wibble on September 03, 2020, 07:54:44 PM
Update on Changing of the Guard - I am now at 4 out of 10 as opposed to 1 from before. Spoiler
A very slight move of the digger had a big effect
Hint 1
Think about how to use the skills you don't mention, imploder and climber.
Hint 2
Rethink your assumptions.
Hint 3
The level is not what it seems.
Hint 4
Maybe a method you used in another level can help you.
I can give more hints if you need more, good success.
Thanks as always for the hints. Just realised I didn't attach my unsuccessful method for Changing of the Guard - all skills are used in there apart from the climber (if I assign one it won't save them anyway for that method).
Spoiler
Having read the hints I don't think it makes a difference though, looks like I need a whole new approach.
A Matter of Perspective is now done.
Spoiler
I did have one where a walker built the bridge a little earlier and the timing didn't work out so well as it made me then assign a runner earlier, forcing them to mine, the bridge has to be pretty precise to get the 2 turning round together like that. I was fairly sure that was where I was going to gain the time but didn't consider trying a bridge in between my 2.
Quote from: Wibble on September 04, 2020, 06:19:37 PM
Thanks as always for the hints. Just realised I didn't attach my unsuccessful method for Changing of the Guard - all skills are used in there apart from the climber (if I assign one it won't save them anyway for that method). Spoiler
Having read the hints I don't think it makes a difference though, looks like I need a whole new approach.
If you still can't find an approach after some thinking further hints:
Hint 5
You are right, you need another approach.
Hint 6
The terrain is deceptive.
Hint 7
Is there another spot you can dig that makes sense?
Hint 8
Do you remember the level "As Good As Dead"?
Couple more unsuccessful replays of Changing attached.
Spoiler
The second one has the digger as far to the left as possible, 1 pixel further left and the steel stops them.
I have also tried digging on the right hand side to implode at that wall, with no more success, saved 3 iirc
Hint 9
Your basic idea of the replays with the lefthand digger is correct.
Hint 10
Try different digger timings to make it work.
Still on COTG -
Spoiler
I attached an attempt before where the digger was as far left as possible. If you undo that dig and click the rewind once, then dig, you hit steel so it doesn't work.
I have tried clicking onwards 1 step then having them dig, none of those attempts work either. I need a lix to be facing left when they fall, using lix from the right trapdoor doesn't work as they don't get there quickly enough. I have also noticed that once you get to the point where the hole is at full width, the relative position of the lix from the left trapdoor at the end of digging will be the same anyway - they walk the same distance as the dig takes the same length of time.
I had read the thread on the backroute for this level, which it feels like the hints here are guiding me towards. But that says you are using the exact frame - surely such a solution cannot be the intended one?
I think it's the first level where I may need to admit defeat, at least for now.
Concerning "backroute"
The "backroute" only makes itself harder than needed to be but it is a tight level.
Hint 11
Just try out different lix with the digger.
Since Simon and Wibble had/have such problems with the level it would be maybe a candidate for higher ranking.
At last...
Spoiler
What I am interested in is that from the backroute post, it says Proxima's solution did not dig there, so there is another intended solution out there somewhere.
Quote from: Wibble on September 06, 2020, 12:56:36 PM
At last...
Spoiler
What I am interested in is that from the backroute post, it says Proxima's solution did not dig there, so there is another intended solution out there somewhere.
Congrats on solving.
Concerning Proxima's solution
Proxima digs at the lefthand side like the "backroute" and you, just not at the same time as the "backroute". Your solution basically matches the solving replay by Proxima.
I think I'd have been there for months trying without those hints. Every other level I've had hints for has not required nearly so much!
Hopefully the solution has taught me some things I can apply to later levels - it's a bit like Snowball Battle in that a general assumption you almost always apply to levels is turned on its head
Spoiler
for example the idea that sometimes you don't use the first lix to dig
For Gr8 Escape think problem oriented.
Hint 1
Consider what you know about the skills you've available and how it can help you.
Hint 2
Focus this thinking on the builder skill and what you know about it.
Hmm...I'm going to post my thoughts as much as a way to help myself as anything on Gr8 Escape.
Spoiler
With only 3 bashers, 1 basher needs to be used to take out 2 pillars for either the upper or lower trapdoor if not both.
Scenario A - If you bridge up to a height to only use 1 basher on the lower one thats 3 bridges used. Add in 4 more to span the gaps and you have just 2 left, not enough to stall with.
You can bash through the first bridge or build an extra bridge to pen all the lix in. But the latter will require a bash to get back out anyway, and then you need to somehow turn around the lone lix to have them undermine the top half. And I can't see how to do that.
So I don't think I have enough materials to make that work.
Scenario B - as shown in the attachment I gave - go lower so you can bridge to the first white ball, then bridging left allows you to use a single bash to undermine.
Problem is that again there aren't enough spare bridges to stall with.
Again, I could build a bridge up against the first tunnel to block most lix in, or use 3 right left bridged - however I'd then need an extra basher to get them back out. Which I haven't got.
Following the advice in the hints, what do I know about bridges?
1) They have a fixed height and width. So I know for example that I will need 4 bridges to span the 2 gaps.
2) They take time to build, making them require stalling/be useable as a stall.
3) They can act as turners if a lix bangs their head - the way this terrain is set up that's useful as a stall for 1 lix.
4) You can speed up building a bit if one lix passes a bridger and starts to build at the edge of their plank. Tried that with a similar approach to the playthrough I attached, it may save an extra lix or 2 but not 100%.
3 adjacent bridges act effectively as a 1 direction wall. Of course, for this level that would then require an extra basher to then fix.
They will turn if put up against a blocker (not relevant to this level)
If a lix is trapped in terrain they will build a single plank then stop - and from what I can see will not rise by stepping onto said plank.
I can tell you as much that
Spoiler
one of your thoughts about the builder is the key but maybe not in the way you think.
Brute Fours - A very apt name for the level, I took a lot of attempts experimenting with various possible combinations. Really curious to know if mine is the only solution, feels like more should be possible.
Spoiler
As soon as I had the idea to use the bridge there I solved the level, I was using the bridge lower down or with a basher to rescue the left/rightmost lix before that
100% Built by Lixes aka Tribute to Tribute to M. C Escher? - I'm 1 bridge short, feels like I'm so close but so far.
Spoiler
I have also tried using the block on the right in the same way as I do on the left, but it doesn't save me any bridges there.
Waltz in C Sharp Miner - Felt the key to this level (geddit?) was
Spoiler
seeing how to save on miners when rescuing the lix from the top trapdoor
. I don't know if I did a backroute or if
Spoiler
using the miner as a turner
was intended? A nice level again presenting lots of possible options and asking you to optimise the limited skills available. Given the most known composer of a piece of this nature is Chopin, surely the traps should have been the spinning blades?
Wait Why is There a Tree? - Presumably, there is a tree because
Spoiler
it makes the title work?
. Included here for completion in order but I haven't spent too long on this yet.
Spoiler
Fairly sure I can see where to use the imploders and climbers, I think the missing piece for me is seeing where the diggers come into it.
Get Hype - Solved this one fairly quickly after abandoning the red herring idea of
Spoiler
using the exploder at the top to fling 1 lix to the right to get the platform built, and others to the left for the excavations
Timing is a bit fiddly
Spoiler
in making sure that athlete is the exploded lix and not the miner
All Aboard the Pain Train - Given the fun I had with COTG it would be something of an irony if I solved this straightaway. Funnily enough, I haven't, though like WWITAT? its a level I can take a bit more time to explore I think.
Finally getting round to watching some replays to my levels.
Brute Fours:
Spoiler
I need to tweak the number of lix so you can't just ignore one trapdoor. However, your solution is very close -- with the bomber and blocker left over, you could have saved the left group from the position you reached.
Waltz in C Sharp Miner:
Spoiler
Exactly as intended. The title is a reference to Chopin but I don't get what you mean about the sawblades?
Toccata is exactly as intended.
The Circular Ruins:
Spoiler
This is not intended; there is an intended trick that gives you a lot more space to place the skills so they are less precise. I should see if I can tweak the level to enforce this.
Thomas the Climber is intended. As for the title, it's both a pun on Thomas the Rhymer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Rhymer) and a very obscure hint. (The name "Thomas" means "twin".)
Buridan's Lix:
Spoiler
Your replay is a failed attempt for the left exit. I could give hints but I don't know if you want that.
Rumble to the Bottom: Close enough to intended.
I'm Gonna Make You Mine: Not intended, but this is a level where anything that works is acceptable.
Dividing Three By Two: Good solution.
Down Among the Dead Lix: Also good. I think my solution does use two bombers to turn around the right group, but yours is a bit more elegant.
Lixster Quadrille: This is another "anything goes" level. Yours is a good solution.
This Lix is Your Lix: Much nicer than my solution! I will definitely leave this in.
Chopin = Chopping = Blades? A simple pun.
Brute Fours - replay with 18 lix saved attached, so the save requirement can go up to that to get around my unintended solution.
Buridan's Lix - hints would be appreciated, even with a limited skill set I'm not seeing it.
Quote from: Wibble on September 07, 2020, 05:11:42 PM
Hopefully the solution has taught me some things I can apply to later levels - it's a bit like Snowball Battle in that a general assumption you almost always apply to levels is turned on its head Spoiler
for example the idea that sometimes you don't use the first lix to dig
It's funny the way you state this, because I think you've probably used the trick/idea stated in spoilers probably a dozen of times already (just not necessarily with a digger). And I'm sure it won't be the last :P
Alien Invasion -- This level has always been riddled with backroutes (which explains the Lixes spawning in the wall...).
Your solution is very close in spirit to what I had in mind; mine is arguably a tiny bit more elegant (no fiddly skill placements), but I don't think I can remove your variation.
COTG - I think the solution I found first is the same as Simon's, and I wouldn't say it's a backroute (but maybe Proxima's opinion differs).
I remember struggling with this for a bit as well though, and
Spoiler
iirc in earlier solutions I exploited the bauble as well, which got it to be moved a bit higher.
100% Built by Lixes -- This is probably not much of a hint, but I'll spoiler it just in case:
Spoiler
You can save a builder in this level.
And another very loose one, just to taunt you :)
Spoiler
You are indeed very close.
Buridan -- Left exit: There are actually (at least two) different ways of doing this! I'll clue at only one of them.
Spoiler
Looking at your solution attempt, there's one obvious way to shift some skill placements
to make fewer (but still too many) Lix die before the bridge creating the safe fall is created.
Spoiler
Can you apply a similar idea somewhere else to give the trailblazer even more of a headstart?
Spoiler
Some of your skill placements feel a bit like a waste of a skill. Use them differently to realize
the previous hint.
Buridan -- Right exit:
Spoiler
You need to stall the crowd, create a safe fall for the worker, and also for the crowd.
Spoiler
This involves a trick (or two) you should be familiar with.
Progress update - I have 9 levels left to solve in Vicious now - The Gr8 Escape, Buridan's Lix, 100% Built by Lixes, Wait Why is There a Tree, All Aboard the Pain Train, Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix, Theresa Falls Up the Stairs, Heed the Traffic Light, Halfway Down the Stairs, and Chasm.
I have also solved a couple of Hopeless levels, (Division of Labour and Empty Space is Hardly a Waste, both done fairly quickly) - haven't really spent long on anything in Hopeless yet though.
Feel like I'm close with some and clueless with others...
For the remaining solved vicious levels:
Survival of the Craftiest - Solved 1st attempt, the only fiddly bit to me was
Spoiler
use of the batter
. Liked the level in terms of just how big it looked (without being onerous in length)
Dream the Impossible Dream - Also solved fairly quickly, (fewer than 10 attempts)
Spoiler
Here the fiddly bit was getting the timing right to use the right hand basher
. Feels to me like a lot of the alternative routes can be ruled out very quickly?
Triangle Inequality - Reminded me of Tribute to Benny Hill in that its about clumping the group together, but it seems much easier than that level - feels like it should be in Cunning at the latest? As a level at that difficulty level its a nice idea.
3.1.1.1 - I felt it was very generous with the skills available, and the terrain made it pretty clear where to deploy most of them, so it only took a couple of goes.
Finale - Solved this more quickly than Toccata, though of course Toccata has to go first. And with the artwork used in Toccata you can't even switch the names.
Spoiler
Feels like a fairly conventional level, once I worked out that you can afford to have a few lix splat at any rate
. Like SOTC I liked the fact the level had scale but did not take a long time for any attempt.
Strange that 4 of the last 5 levels in Vicious have been relatively tame, idk if that matches others experiences?
Also attached is a better but still failed attempt for Buridan's lix, an optimisation of the earlier one. 8 lix saved now, so there is still something I'm doing wrong.
Quote from: Wibble on September 12, 2020, 06:15:14 PM
Triangle Inequality - Reminded me of Tribute to Benny Hill in that its about clumping the group together, but it seems much easier than that level - feels like it should be in Cunning at the latest? As a level at that difficulty level its a nice idea.
3.1.1.1 - I felt it was very generous with the skills available, and the terrain made it pretty clear where to deploy most of them, so it only took a couple of goes.
[...]
Strange that 4 of the last 5 levels in Vicious have been relatively tame, idk if that matches others experiences?
Your solution to Triangle Inequality is a known backroute (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3721).
As I indicated in an earlier post I agree that 3.1.1.1 feels on the easier side for the rank and could in my view be ranked down or come earlier in the rank. The level design indicates indeed much there.
I think I myself backrouted Dream the Impossible Dream, so I can't assess how hard it is intendedly (can't tell you as well if your route is intended or not at the moment). I can't remember Finale (in comparision to Toccata) very well, so I can't assess there either.
The backroute to Triangle Inequality being known must have slipped me, because it completely trivializes the level.
Here's a fix (I hope):
Finale is intended. I agree with it being easier than Toccata, but as you said, can't really switch them :P (Incidentally, all three levels were originally created in Cheapo using Repton graphics -- but the level now called "Prelude" used Repton 1 graphics, while "Finale" used Prelude graphics and was called "Prelude". So the ordering made more sense then.)
Survival of the Craftiest is anything-goes. Nice trick with the batter 8-)
Dream the Impossible Dream is a backroute.
Halfway Down the Stairs - Nice timing level, feels like I may have backrouted it somehow as I saved 2 more than required and had skills remaining?
Spoiler
with better timing on the miner I'd have a platform as well
. A 1 of everything puzzle which is nothing new as an idea but interesting to see how many ways you can have lix climb up terrain with no bridges.
It's an anything-goes level, so no worries. Nice solution.
Heed the Traffic Light - I liked this level - looked very difficult at first but having solved it I genuinely felt I should have spotted the method sooner.
Spoiler
Its pretty clear where the excavation skills have to be used so figuring out the timing of the blocker is the main puzzle
All Aboard the Pain Train - After practically being given a solution replay for Changing of the Guards I was expecting this to be a complete nightmare and had avoided any serious attempts at it until today, but got the idea fairly quickly.
Spoiler
The execution took several more attempts however as there are a few timing elements to the solution, many of which you can't tell the accuracy of until seeing if you won or not
. I think its in the right place difficulty wise as although I solved it a lot more easily than COTG, I used some ideas from the solution of that level (its a bit like the fact I solved Slipping Again much more quickly than Slipping).
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Lix - I don't know if this is a backroute or if
Spoiler
theclimber is a red herring - if so, nice one, it had me fooled for a while, most of my failed attempts were in trying to work out how to get the climber to help and have the miner at the right height too. Solved it on the first attempt where I decided not to use a climber but just use the last lix
.
Tinker Tailor
The intended solution uses all skills, including the climber. Nearly all of your ideas are the same as the intended route, only one idea is radically different.
The intended route needs good timing.
I'll leave it to the designers (Proxima, mobius) to decide if this is backroute or a nice alternate method. If it's a backroute, I don't see any easy fixes. I'd tend to leave it in, especially because the climber becomes a lovely red herring for Wibble's route.
I'm happy that there is so much solving these days, and I'm already gathering the fixes across your and Forestidia's threads.
-- Simon
I can't believe I haven't looked at Wibble's replay properly yet.
Quote from: geoo on August 12, 2020, 03:39:41 PM
QuoteSome Like to Run took me a long time to figure out.
I believe this is actually a backroute. Let me tighten the spawn interval (attached) to hopefully fix it. We should probably cross-check with Minim though as I'm not sure I know all nuances of the intended solution.
It is a backroute. :(
Spoiler
Those three lemmings at the far end needed to be split into three paths first.
Entertaining solution though I must admit. Geoo's spawn rate fix should hopefully sort the problem out, and maybe a laser trap could be added somewhere too?
So, with the remaining 6 Vicious levels I'm pretty much stuck. Some feel close to the solution, some not.
Gr8 Escape - still not seeing how to apply any tricks with bridges to either stall several lix in 1 go (without needing an extra basher) or turn around without a wall.
Burridan's lix - 1 short on the solution for the left, not even close with the right.
100% Built - not seeing how to save a bridge on either side.
Spoiler
On the RHS I can see that 6 bridges are needed for the height leaving 1 bridge to both stall the remaining lix and unstall them, doesn't seem possible? But on the LHS I'm not seeing how to use fewer bridges either, 1 splatform, 2 to get past the sanctuary either side, leaves 1 bridge to allow all lix to get to the sanctuary after the first pass - also seems impossible? Obviously one of those things is possible though.
Wait Why Is there a Tree? -
Spoiler
Thoughts are to try to use the diggers together with 1 implode to turn a climber round and bridge right to left, but I can't see how to do that and then be able to get across to the sanctuary? I have tried sending 3 climbers up, having 1 dig immediately, the second dig into an alcove to allow the 3rd to turn, then implode the second, but can't get the timings to work - for the second climber to dig far enough for the 3rd to turn around, the imploder then ends up too deep.
Theresa Falls Up the Stairs - 2 different unsuccessful methods attached.
Spoiler
I can't optimise the digging any more for the platforms to reach with the second method, leading me to think the first is closer to the solution. If I can just get a lix to the sanctuary area from the start without using a batter, blocker, or both jumpers then I can solve it I think.
Chasm - Most of my attempts are variants of the attached.
Spoiler
I have also tried using a climber from the right trapdoor to jump the chasm from that side, aiming to mine down to the LHS - with no success
Hints for any or all would be appreciated at this stage.
Gr8 Escape
Spoiler
Imagine a level with entirely straight, orthogonal terrain (and yes, I know "The Gr8 Escape" isn't exactly that). Now complete this sentence: A builder will turn around when he hits a wall or ____
Buridan's Lix, left
Spoiler
A bridge needs to be built on the bottom level. Building left-to-right is too slow because you have to walk to the obstacle and turn around. Therefore ____
Buridan's Lix, right
Spoiler
geoo mentioned that this involves a trick from a previous level. The specific level is "The Razor's Edge".
Hint for 100% Built: Number of skills on both sides
The proof replay assigns only 12 of the 13 bridges: 7 on the right, 5 on the left.
-- Simon
All Aboard the Pain Train -- Good work! Pretty much intended. There's one element I had in mind which you didn't do and I realize it's completely unnecessary:
Spoiler
I apply the bomber later to compress the crowd a bit more. I could enforce this by making the bottom metal block a bit less tall, but I'm not sure it's worth doing.
Quote from: Proxima on September 15, 2020, 07:56:59 PM
Buridan's Lix, left
Spoiler
A bridge needs to be built on the bottom level. Building left-to-right is too slow because you have to walk to the obstacle and turn around. Therefore ____
Actually, this is not true (see one of Forestidia's replays). But maybe that's what you consider the backroute that should be fixed (see backroute thread)?
Quote from: Wibble on September 15, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
100% Built - not seeing how to save a bridge on either side. Spoiler
On the RHS I can see that 6 bridges are needed for the height leaving 1 bridge to both stall the remaining lix and unstall them, doesn't seem possible? [...]
Spoiler
It is possible.
Spoiler
I'm not sure if my hint from the previous post was clear: You can do the level with 12 builders in total. Your LHS already looks pretty optimal to me.
Spoiler
Let me quote you: "Hopefully the solution has taught me some things I can apply to later levels - [...] for example the idea that sometimes you don't use the first lix to dig". You're already applying this to an extent, but don't just think of it as having to wait for all lixes to spawn, but consider it a boon. This level wouldn't work if you only had, say, 3 lixes coming out of the hatch.
Quote from: Wibble on September 15, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Wait Why Is there a Tree? - Spoiler
Thoughts are to try to use the diggers together with 1 implode to turn a climber round and bridge right to left, but I can't see how to do that and then be able to get across to the sanctuary? I have tried sending 3 climbers up, having 1 dig immediately, the second dig into an alcove to allow the 3rd to turn, then implode the second, but can't get the timings to work - for the second climber to dig far enough for the 3rd to turn around, the imploder then ends up too deep.
Spoiler
Quotethe imploder then ends up too deep
Right, you need to change the position where you implode the digger so the crowd can get to the sanctuary. You can't apply the imploder higher up, lower down doesn't help you, so...
Spoiler
...how about adjusting the x-position?
Quote from: Wibble on September 15, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Theresa Falls Up the Stairs - 2 different unsuccessful methods attached. Spoiler
I can't optimise the digging any more for the platforms to reach with the second method, leading me to think the first is closer to the solution. If I can just get a lix to the sanctuary area from the start without using a batter, blocker, or both jumpers then I can solve it I think.
This one is tricky, a lot of things to try.
Spoiler
In one of your attempts you use the blocker to turn the crowd. In the other you use it to get a lix up top. Why not both?
Spoiler
In case you're struggling to realize the previous hint, let's dig our your quote again: Let me quote you: "Hopefully the solution has taught me some things I can apply to later levels - [...] for example the idea that sometimes you don't use the first lix to dig"
Spoiler
Of course, using a blocker to turn the crowd leaves you to solve the issue how to turn the stragglers around. This is quite elegant and non-obvious.
Spoiler
Maybe "turn around" isn't quite the right term...
Spoiler
Look closely at the leftover skills.
Quote from: Wibble on September 15, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Chasm - Most of my attempts are variants of the attached. Spoiler
I have also tried using a climber from the right trapdoor to jump the chasm from that side, aiming to mine down to the LHS - with no success
Spoiler
I should be impossible to get a single lix from the left to the right.
Spoiler
Where exactly did your approach (in spoilers) get stuck? It seems like a good start to me.
Thanks for all hints given, I have looked at 3 of the levels I was stuck on and solved 2.5 of them now.
Burridan's Lix (LHS) - OK, should have saw that way sooner than I did!
Spoiler
Nice idea pre building the bridge from below!
For the RHS, have read Proxima's hints, I did suspect it would be something to do with the level mentioned there, still working on how though.
Wait Why Is There a Tree? - I had most of the idea already, just missed
Spoiler
the fact that I don't need them to be able to climb up the crater if its made over there
Theresa Falls Up the Stairs - Got this one off the first hint. Liked this level a lot, any level that uses a variety of skills, particularly the non basic lemmings ones, is one that appeals. The trap adds a nice bit of scenery even if it is generally cosmetic in function.
The Gr8 Escape - To answer Proxima's question
Spoiler
I can think of 3 things; ceiling, blocker, or bridge (going the opposite way). Obviously it can't be the blocker. My thoughts are its the underside of the white balls? But then I'd need bridges to shore up the gap for the rest of the lix, probably at least 3 more? Which I don't have. Can't see anywhere else it can apply though.
Chasm - to answer the question in the hints, see the replay.
Spoiler
With no more climbers I can't even use boxes to help.
Chasm
You can make the climber reach the other side. Remember "Endeavor"?
The Gr8 Escape
QuoteI can think of 3 things; ceiling, blocker, or bridge (going the opposite way).
The physics are a bit more subtle than this. It's not really a matter of "ceiling" or "wall", but rather of hit your head or hit your feet.
Spoiler
In particular hitting your head you can do at various angles.
Burridan's Lix RHS now solved. Weirdly I thought I'd tried that method earlier, clearly I hadn't!
Chasm -
Spoiler
being told it is possible to go from right to left, I have now seen how to do this, it does however require an exploder as far as I can see, in order to avoid having to use the parachute too early. Now to think out how to do the rest.
Concerning Gr8 Escape
Hint a
What is the most pressing problem in the level and how can a turned builder help you against that?
Hint b
Does in this context anything look suspicious to you concerning the level design?
Hint c
Maybe the non builder lix can be kept away from danger.
Gr8 Escape -
Spoiler
The most pressing problem - depends if its about holding all lix in position or not, and whether I bridge up to a level where I can bash through in 1 to get to the outside, or use 2 bashers instead.
If it's about holding all lix in place, and bridging up first, its a lack of bashers to release again plus no terrain to work with at all to turn the bridge.
If it's about holding all lix in place and bashing twice lower down then I can see how to turn the bridger against the white circle, but releasing the held lix takes the 3rd basher leaving none to release the top part.
Gr8 Escape
Hint d
Maybe the non builder lix can be guided away from danger and...
Hint e
...at the same time the builder can build in the direction you need.
Quote from: Wibble on September 17, 2020, 04:00:08 PM
Burridan's Lix RHS now solved. Weirdly I thought I'd tried that method earlier, clearly I hadn't!
Did you attach the wrong replay? This is a failed attempt and is dated August.
Looks like I did then, let me try that again!
Also on Gr8 Escape
Spoiler
when you say nonbuilder lix, is that use of the word lix meant to be singular or plural?
Quote from: Wibble on September 17, 2020, 05:51:11 PM
Also on Gr8 Escape Spoiler
when you say nonbuilder lix, is that use of the word lix meant to be singular or plural?
Spoiler
plural form, an amount of lix that are not the builder
So, no further on Gr8 Escape or 100% built. For Chasm, this is now where I am at,
Spoiler
not sure if I need to save an extra bomber to use 2 explosions to get the floater across the 2nd time? I can also use a cuber on the RHS to protude out a bit which may help.
Quote from: Wibble on September 18, 2020, 04:22:20 PM
So, no further on Gr8 Escape or 100% built. For Chasm, this is now where I am at, Spoiler
not sure if I need to save an extra bomber to use 2 explosions to get the floater across the 2nd time? I can also use a cuber on the RHS to protude out a bit which may help.
Spoiler
The fling exploder physics are a bit subtle. With a bit of messing around, you should be able to get the climber very close to the steel wall using just one exploder to fling it.
Gr8 Escape and 100% built:
Spoiler
The idea you're missing in these two levels is extremely similar, it's just set up in a slightly different way.
Spoiler
"Lovely 35: One way road" might give a loose inspiration here.
Spoiler
Upon closer inspection Lovely 35 has in fact two one-way roads.
Spoiler
For Gr8 Escape: I mentioned you can bump your head at various angles. Have you ever bumped with your head into a wall? Or into a doorframe of a door that wasn't tall enough for you to fit?
Spoiler
Or into a doorframe of a mouse hole?
I suspected the first of those hints, and got 100% built solved off the 2nd hint - at last. That's a trick I don't think I'd have ever spotted otherwise. Ironically, the level referred to was the level in Lovely that I found the most difficult by a considerable margin!
Chasm - I had the right idea after the hints told me to approach it
Spoiler
using a lix from right to left
. Took many rewinds and attempts to
Spoiler
align the exploding running jumper correctly
though - a worthy final level for this difficulty I think!
Escape - I think I have seen the trick you all were hinting at, but still a bridge short.
Spoiler
I can have the trailblazer bash through for the top trapdoor or bridge the gap between the white spheres, but not both?
Still stuck on Escape, have started more seriously looking at Hopeless now.
Will post about others later, but thought I'd comment on Bipolar Maniac. Surely this is a backroute, otherwise this should be in Lovely!
Bipolar Maniac: Yes, this is a backroute. This looks fixable by requiring 10/11 instead of 9/10. One can also give a 6th floater then.
You can change the level in the editor. Nepster isn't around; if nobody has a better idea, I'll also earmark this for the next release.
-- Simon
Quote from: Simon on September 20, 2020, 01:49:34 PM
Bipolar Maniac: Yes, this is a backroute. This looks fixable by requiring 10/11 instead of 9/10. One can also give a 6th floater then.
You can change the level in the editor. Nepster isn't around; if nobody has a better idea, I'll also earmark this for the next release.
-- Simon
The author line says Insane Steve?
Gr8 Escape
Hint
Maybe there are other suspicious structures in the level than the white globes?
Quote from: Forestidia86 on September 20, 2020, 03:09:47 PM
The author line says Insane Steve?
Wow, yeah, had it wrong in mind then for years. Insane Steve is chaos_defrost and still here.
-- Simon
Thanks all, that hint of
Spoiler
basically apply that approach to something else
was all I needed - well, on top of all the others! To be fair, I think I'd have still been there waiting if I hadn't had the hint to
Spoiler
look at that lovely level, aka Dolly Dimple 2
Had one of those moments where I was counting skills used for 1 method for a different method
Spoiler
I'd ruled out going above because I thought I'd still need to turn around to save a basher, forgetting the point of the above route is to save a basher...
.
After all that I still had a bridge to spare too!
So, with all of Vicious done I feel that it's fairly obvious which levels I consider the hardest in there!
For Hopeless, I have solved a few.
Recycling Plant - very original,
Spoiler
not sure what the function of the first bouncepad was?
. I had the idea to
Spoiler
make the path as long as possible
but took a lot of different attempts, varying use of the remaining skills to get to a solution. Looks good in fast forward mind!
Empty Space Is Hardly A Waste - solved this before
Spoiler
Burridan's Lix
, so I really should have saw the solution to the latter earlier, especially as this level didn't take long at all. Love the simple aesthetic of this one.
Close to the Edge - Got the idea fairly quickly for this one too, but was slowed slightly
Spoiler
as I was trying to use a turner instead of imploder for the top blocker
. Once I changed that approach it was solved pretty quickly.
The Hotel In Hell - As with Close to the Edge, I was pretty close to the solution pretty quickly, a slight tweak changed me from almost there to there, namely
Spoiler
using the turner at the top for 2 lix instead of twice on 1 lix was the key for me
. Liked the aesthetic of this one again.
Division of Labour - Solved in 2 attempts, honestly didn't think my method would work and just tried it in case it did! Only just mind - in 2 places the timing is very tight.
I've got a feeling I have picked the low hanging fruit so far mind, the other levels I have looked at in Hopeless are nowhere near a solution as yet.
Don't Catch Me If You Can - This is an "easy if you can see it, impossible if you can't" type of level, a nice stalling trick in the end. Nice to see the shadow tribe getting a go at the game too.
Yuki, Muon, Madobe, Nite - I assume this translates as
Spoiler
Home run?
. Assuming my solution is the intended method I like that trick at the start.
Ascending and Descending - Great in scale and I must admit having only 1 basher really stumped me for a bit, but
Spoiler
having been stuck on Gr8 Escape and 100% Built for so long I saw that the trick is similar for this level relatively quickly. Then it was just a matter of optimising bridge placement as much as I could, was pleased to still have 1 left over
.
Back after a while not playing, though I expect progress to be much much slower now I'm on the hardest levels.
I do have one more solved level - Stuff in the Way. I don't know if my solution is the only/intended one, certainly requires a bit of T+I in the timing.
Solution to Stuff in the Way matches in most parts the replay from the collection. At one point the use of two skills is basically swapped but this meets in both solution basically the same ends.
From my perspective an alternative solution but the maintainer would have to decide.
Evacuate the Sinking Ship - spent ages on this one. With how the solution
Spoiler
only just
fits I'm fairly sure its the conventional method.
Spoiler
I was trying far more complicated approaches to the level. Once I simplified the approach it was very quick to solve.
Solution to Sinking Ship matches one of the lemforum replays. It seems to be the more elegant variant.
Spoiler
The other replay of the lemforum collection has on top a dynamic stalling method.