Over 3 years in development and it's finally here: Lemmings United! :thumbsup:
1.) Download Links:
Lemmings United (V 13.2 ~ 540 KB): Lemmings United V 13.2 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3fktfwkt12kyini/Lemmings_United.zip?dl=1)
Contains the level pack in the newest version!
Lemmings United Music (~ 153 MB) : Lemmings United Music (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wet0c6wpsd7erjq/United_Music.zip?dl=1)
Contains the music tracks! Extract all the tracks into the "music" folder of your NeoLemmix player. If the player does not have a "music" folder yet, create one in the same folder where the player is located.
To update you only need to redownload + replace the files of the previous version. The music only needs to be downloaded + configurated on your first download!
2.) Installation:
1. Get a NeoLemmix player from: https://www.neolemmix.com/ and extract it into a folder of your choice (if you already have an up-to-date player you can skip this step)
Also make sure you got all the styles that are linked in the player section there as well and extract them into your player's "styles" folder. The pack uses some non-standard tilesets and
therefore needs the collection.
2. Unzip "Lemmings_United.zip" into the main folder of your Neolemmix player. ../levels/Lemmings_United should exist now.
3. Extract all the music files from "United_Music.zip" into the "music" folder of your NeoLemmix player. If the player does not have a "music" folder yet, create one in the same folder where the player is located.
4. Run "NeoLemmix.exe" and press F2 in the main menu so you can access the pack through the level browser.
5. Inform yourself about the basics, new NeoLemmix features and hotkeys with the manual: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4081.0
6. Enjoy!
3.) Ratings:
Pacifism
Island Of Dreams:
(https://i.imgur.com/6k7APD0.png)
Here we start things of with a quick introduction followed by some simple puzzles. This should not be too hard for most people, but especially at the rank's end where I start to introduce some sneaky tricks you will need to start your thinking engine. ;)
Neutrality
Revenants:
(https://i.imgur.com/sHEjXpD.png)
More advanced tricks and more combinations of tricks await you here. You skills will start to be tested seriously now and you may even need to learn a few new tricks.
Tension
My Little Lemmagotchi:
(https://i.imgur.com/GHATmHq.png)
Things start to get really difficult at this point. Even though there will be some breathers here and there, you must release all puzzling power that you have to make it through here. Already learned tricks might also resurface in a more unobvious environments and it is very likely that you will discover new tricks for your arsenal. I have learned quite a variety of tricks in my Lemmings history and by reaching this rank you prove to be a worthy test subject. :evil:
War
Kraft Und Licht:
(https://i.imgur.com/3rj6Afs.png)
Now I really want to see the steam come out of your head! Very complex skill combinations and unobvious behaviors will be required to survive (all while still being fair of course). Can you get through the onslaught of tough levels, or will you give up? :devil:
Genocide
Gate To The Inner Sanctum:
(https://i.imgur.com/0hW7Gbz.png)
No more prisoners! It seems like I will need to release everything in terms of tricks and skills that I've learned on you! There is no more mercy! Face the puzzle nightmares I've prepared for you and you may make it in the end! :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:
Bonus
The Adventures of Lemdiana Jones:
(https://i.imgur.com/RHplXwm.png)
Here I gathered and roughly sorted in terms of difficulty all the additional contest, collaboration and single levels I've made during development. Enjoy this little extra!
4.) Thanks to:
Nepster for maintaining NeoLemmix
Plom510 and GigaLem for making the mainmenu logo and some of the tilesets
joshescue18, Strato Incendus and Proxima for testing
Uncle and the Bacon for providing one of the music tracks
Youtube link to the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJIANR4DXv0
miarf for providing one of the music tracks
Youtube link to the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH0IapYuDRk
jeux video et des bas for providing one of the music tracks
Youtube link to the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5tAG-9bGwE&t=1s
5.) CONTACT INFO:
Via email you can reach me at: ScavengerW@gmx.de
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4Elfo3E1jTl-SHlOy97kwA
6.) Win a prize:
Win a prize for solving ALL of Lemmings United!
I've prepared 3 prizes for the first 3 people who solve ALL of the pack with 100% backroute-free solutions. So sadly if you solved a few levels with backroutes you will still need to resolve my update until no more backroutes remain.
The prizes are copies of my hand-scribbled blueprints for a part of the levels, which will be sent to you after your solutions are accepted!
All prizes have their winners now!
Prize winners:
- Armani
- kaywhyn
- joshescue18 (prize rejected - redirected as a thank you gift to namida for NL maintenance :))
7.) Music track list:
United_01 - Quarks123 - Anti-Sad Song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-th_KKWclc)
United_02 - Beach Boys 16 bit Surfin USA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arkoQgiIlac)
United_03 - Sheep OST - jurassic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZiwc0YPuFs)
United_04 - Command&Conquer Red Alert - Groundwire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE49A3-uRLE)
United_05 - Silent Partner - Runner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqlRBrMBk8)
United_06 - The Green Orbs - At The Fair (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsgp-ilVqBs)
United_07 - Vibe Mountain - AI 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJvZqB-2T54)
United_08 - Dune 2000 OST - Under Construction (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdLMQRo_ydI)
United_09 - Age of Empires Soundtrack - Track #3 - Dawn of A New Age (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llo8ckcrYgI)
United_10 - Ellischant- Shade of a new Dawn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne-L2qPG0J0&t=4s)
United_11 - Quake 2 OST - Descent into Cerberon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALBKFB28E0M)
United_12 - jeux video et des bas - Shadow of the Beast Amiga Intro Remix (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5tAG-9bGwE&t=1s)
United_13 - Emperor: Battle for Dune OST - Not an Option (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOmX6HmGp0U)
United_14 - Mike Oldfield - To France - Instrumental cover by Doxent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foOUwR9DMxI)
United_15 - Ievan Polkka - instrumental (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ6jEWqpk5M)
United_16 - Emperor: Battle for Dune OST - The Machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGav8_HQbA)
United_17 - Emperor: Battle for Dune OST - Harkonnen Force (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOxuQBe_cL8)
United_18 - Emperor: Battle for Dune OST - Victory Is Inevitable (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlUU2U-Sn_g)
United_19 - Dune 2000 OST - Rise of the Harkonnen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ2mUSz-8W0)
United_20 - Emperor: Battle for Dune OST - Surrounded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1SUUkhKkXo)
United_21 - Bernie Boulder OST - Classic (No link to this, as I needed to hand convert it from a very old game disk)
United_22 - Earth 2140 - Track 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMv5G90cFf4)
United_23 - Lomax OST - Lemmingland 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLUaHtpZtc)
United_24 - Toby Fox - Asgore (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMa4hZQbrms)
United_25 - Lemming rastafari (https://www.remix64.com/track/selecta-novel/lemmings-green-haired-rastafari/)
United_26 - Bernie Boulder OST - Forest (No link to this, as I needed to hand convert it from a very old game disk)
United_27 - Uncle and the Bacon - Postcard from Lemmingland Big Band (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJIANR4DXv0)
United_28 - Wiz 'n' Liz OST - Snow Land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wcSU741plQ)
United_29 - Bernie Boulder OST - Ice (No link to this, as I needed to hand convert it from a very old game disk)
United_30 - The Settlers 2 OST - Track 8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Na66Ek04c)
United_31 - N++ soundtrack (OST) Dabp - Twunggg! i Guess Well Wait (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFC_qCkrKg)
United_32 - Martin Landh - Racing Hearts 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmG8IMQWx7A)
United_33 - Bernie Boulder OST - Space (No link to this, as I needed to hand convert it from a very old game disk)
United_34 - Vibe Mountain - Operatic 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUHkIKNh7M4)
United_35 - miarf - Lemmings 2 Sports tribe disco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH0IapYuDRk)
United_36 - Emperor: Battle for Dune OST - Spice Must Flow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqzDBbEc4qo)
United_37 - Age of Empires Soundtrack - Track #1 - Conquest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o2aBk86UKY)
United_38 - OC ReMix #511: Command & Conquer: Red Alert 'Mud Mix' [Mud] by Scott Peeples (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM9h-EgBxmE)
United_39 - Risk of Rain OST - Chanson d'Autonome (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSnOWqTPUNQ)
United_40 - Risk of Rain OST - Arctic Oscillation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ChKb_9JoY)
United_41 - Earth 2140 Track 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dtoESMLLoY)
United_42 - Freedom Planet 2 OST - Dragon Valley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR1ue2PG800)
United_43 - Risk of Rain OST - Monsoon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgCmmax-unE)
United_44 - Sakuyas Theme - Flowering Night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFRIWFraWQ)
United_45 - Risk of Rain OST - Coalescence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysPtBjY8o_A)
United_46 - Quake 2 OST - Quad Machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6VpX-feA2M)
United_47 - Indiana Dope Xam (https://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=62206)
United_48 - Toby Fox - Spiderdance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ3XjVVNagU)
Now have some fun with Lemmings United and send me a few replays to get rid of the last pesky backroutes! :thumbsup:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oKIPf3C7HqqYBVcCk/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/7rj2ZgttvgomY/giphy.gif)
Congratulations, IchoTolot! :party::party::party:
Lemmings United certainly is one of the most expected releases in Lemmings custom level design scene, and it's soon 4 years since the groundbreaking Lemmings Reunion arised, huhhuh!
I like how the rating level previews and descriptions have changed since the development topic. :P
The prize idea is funny, though I doubt if anyone is going to solve the entire pack in a long time, given the assumed difficulty and enormous amount of levels, let alone that three people would achieve that! But now there's certainly loads of challenge in it, anyway. :D This might make people not to post their replay solutions in public, though.
Aaand again I have to think if I dare to tackle this pack immediately because of my schoolwork. I tend and like to get absorbed into games like this! :thumbsup:
Hey that's pretty good work :thumbsup:
Thanks for the kind words. :)
I have to say I get a bit nostalgic thinking of the timespan from Reunion being around the first released NL packs back in the days and United now. So many things happened during that timeframe.
Yeah, sorry I couldn't really help with the testing anymore beyond the first rank ;) . I did solve some of the remaining levels in the meantime, but nothing really worth mentioning starting from rank 2. And I don't think the pack has gotten any easier since then.
Congratulations for the official release, IchoTolot! ;) I guess though that I should probably try completing Lemmings Reunion first before attempting to make further progress on United - after all, I give the same advice to players of my own packs (Open Air is going to be more difficult on average than World Tour).
I managed to finish the Pacifism rank :) Since it is only the first rank I'll post my replays on the thread but I doubt anyone on this forum will steal them and pass them on as their own for the sake of the prize.
Spoiler
So far very impressive levels :thumbsup: I'm enjoying the heck out of the pack so far. I think the only levels that I got really stuck on were Pacifism 18 "Dr. Do-Ping's Hideout" and Pacifism 41 "As Far As Peace Can Go". I loved the simplicity of Pacifism 18 and in retrospect I'm surprised I struggled with it so much. I'm not surprised about Pacifism 41 though because that one indeed took me a few attempts to piece every part of it together.
Also on another topic I'm still impressed with your talent in using what I consider the harder L2 tilesets like the CaveLem graphic set. THe way they look alone look like something that could have been official stuff.
Also a big congratulations from me as well in finishing this pack! You worked hard on this pack and it shows :thumbsup:
Thanks for the replays and kind words! :thumbsup:
Great job on the first rank, everything intended or acceptable except: 1 26. ;)
Thanks why V 1.1 is out! With following changes:
- 1 26 backroute fix (moved a pair of arrows a bit higher)
As far in terms of replay steal: I doubt the first (or even 2nd and 3rd) rank will ever be the area of problems in terms of 100% completion + I look through all of these in detail and I am very confident that I will recognise duplicates. :evil:
V 1.2 is out! :)
Thanks to Colorful Arty's stream a few issues in rank 1 have been fixed:
Level swap:
- 1 18 <--> 1 27
Level fixes:
- 1 01 visual error fixed
- 1 29 backroute fixed via builder pick-up skill
Removed the "getting the non-standard NL tileset part (zanzindorf_agony)" from the download links + installation guide as it now part of the standard library of NL tilesets. :)
V 1.3 is out! :)
The following level has received a little backroute fix:
- 2 41 (added a few OWWs)
V 1.4 is out! :)
The following level has received a backroute fix:
- 3 05 (added a clam and locked the RR)
And in quick succession: V 1.5 is out! ;P
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 3 15 (added a bit of terrain)
- 3 20 (a steel block has been added)
V 1.51 is out due to a little problem with a staircase!
The following level has received a fix:
- 3 20 (a staircase was fixed, level was still solvable though)
More updates: V 1.6 is out! :)
The following level has received a backroute fix:
- 3 37 (moved the central wall up a bit)
Other than that the whole rank 1-3 spectrum has now been restested with intended/acceptable solutions. :)
Well, the last fix was not enough. ;P So as a result 1.7 is out!
The following level has received a backroute fix:
- 3 37 (more terrain changes at the central wall)
The fix train has reached the 4th rank. :) V 1.8 is out!
The following level has received a backroute fix:
- 4 06 (added a bit of steel)
V 1.9 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 11 (some terrain changes)
- 4 13 (added a OWW)
- 4 14 (-1 miner and some terrain changes)
- 4 17 (added a pick-up skill builder and therefore removed 1 builder)
- 4 18 (extra steel was added)
Some backroutes were eliminated, but not all. V 2.0 is out! ;)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 13 (some terrain was added)
- 4 18 (-1 stacker and changed the solution to the backroute as it is simply more efficient)
More fixes for rank 4. V 2.1 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 13 (added a bomber pick-up skill and reduced the bomber count by 1)
- 4 22 (added some steel)
- 4 24 (added 3 stoner pick-up skills and reduced the stoner count by 3)
- 4 25 (the platforms are now thinner)
- 4 28 (added a OWW)
- 4 29 (added some steel)
The following level has received a tiny fix for a visual error:
- 4 11
Also a solution to 4 21 was found that saves 2 walkers and 2 diggers, but I decided to leave this one a bit open-ended so it's acceptable. Both solutions are very hard to find anyway. ;)
Some levls were re-backrouted. V 2.2 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 22 (steel and water was added)
- 4 24 (cloner pick-up skill added and therefore -1 cloner)
- 4 28 (some terrain changes were made)
From 3 to 2 backroutes. :P
V 2.3 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 22 (more steel)
- 4 24 (moved a piece of decoration a bit away)
And now from 2 to 1. ;P
V 2.4 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 22 (even more steel)
The backroute war continues. :XD:
V 2.5 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 22 (more steel and some extra terrain)
More backroutes to fix. :)
V 2.6 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 36 (very slight terrain change)
- 4 37 (the 2 gliders are pick-up skills now)
- 4 39 (1 stoner is now a pick-up skill)
- 4 40 (a OWW has been added)
I found a backroute myself this time! :P
V 2.7 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 39 (a slight terrain change in the exit area)
Well, this is the first time I witnessed how long "professional" pre-release testing can actually take... and yet, I still see a bunch of new updates for backroute fixes coming up. And that even with such an experienced level designer like you.
That's a little demotivating as far as creation of my own packs is concerned :( ... as well as for any other more "casual" level creator, I guess.
Is somebody already LPing this pack on YouTube? And on a general level: Are there any LPs of packs which showcase them in a predominantly backroute-fixed state? :D
Because let's face it: Once somebody has completed a pack, they rarely go back and check whether their replays are still working in the most current version. ;)
The upside for me is: This pack has proven itself way too difficult for me at the moment anyway. So most likely, when I finally get back to it after hopefully having beaten some other, easier packs, it is going to be in a state where most of the backroutes have already been discovered and removed! :thumbsup:
Before release one tester finished rank 3, so I was not surprised quite a few backroutes surfaced in rank 4 (I expected even more tbh). Rank 4 and the majority of rank 5 were pretty much untested.
It will take quite a few testing iterations by different people to get the pack in a MOSTLY stable state regarding backroutes.
QuoteThat's a little demotivating as far as creation of my own packs is concerned :( ... as well as for any other more "casual" level creator, I guess.
Don't be demotivated! Backroutes will always be there, you can limit them a bit in advance through experience, but I highly doubt it is possible to avoid them. :P
Also it's just a basic concept of software design: After release you will always have more testing and maintenance to do, even if you have testers run through it before.
QuoteIs somebody already LPing this pack on YouTube?
The Tomato Watcher has put up a few videos covering nearly half of the 1st rank currently and there was also 1 stream by Colorful Arty covering ~ 3/4 of the 1st rank.
QuoteThe Tomato Watcher has put up a few videos covering nearly half of the 1st rank currently and there was also 1 stream by Colorful Arty covering ~ 3/4 of the 1st rank.
Ah, good to know, thanks! ;)
QuoteAlso it's just a basic concept of software design: After release you will always have more testing and maintenance to do, even if you have testers run through it before.
Of course, but there are those games which only require little add-ons and bonus perks post-release, and those which have an initial release full of bugs. With NeoLemmix itself being quite stable, backroutes are kind of the "bugs" of our individual packs ^^.
Since my own creations tend to contain quite a high share of them, I thought that experience might help other content creators avoid more backroutes from the getgo. People who can create more challenging puzzles to begin with are probably also better at immediately recognising how someone else could break them.
But as it turns out, it seems like also for Lemmings United, it's the more complicated, higher-rank levels that contain more backroutes, simply because they offer more degrees of freedom. The more contained puzzles from the first rank are easier to assess; I remember almost no information about a 1st-rank level having had to be modified in any of the PMs I got from you during the test phase. ;)
Looks very nice, and I like that it is 607 kB. :D
V 2.8 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 37 (removed some steel + slight terrain changes)
- 4 39 (removed the stoner pick-up - so -1 stoner, +1 stacker, +1 platformer, +2 bashers, +1 save requirement)
- 4 40 (added a 3 minute timer, added some steel)
On a side note - the [NeoLemmix] tag in the title isn't really needed, given that all packs on this board should be NeoLemmix. ;)
Quote from: namida on March 30, 2019, 05:51:03 AM
On a side note - the [NeoLemmix] tag in the title isn't really needed, given that all packs on this board should be NeoLemmix. ;)
You are right there, I am still used to it though and think it looks neat. ;P
Finally got around to playing some of this. :D
I've completed the first rank, except for the final level of it. Attached are my replays (including my best attempt so far at 0141). No hints yet, please - I want to try a bit more first.
I felt that the X-of-everything levels (and a couple of other meant-to-be-simple ones) were more long and tedious than they needed to be, with many such levels taking over 10 minutes in-game time. However, once I got past those and into the puzzles, I really enjoyed this pack so far! I also find - though this isn't really your fault - that the traps in some graphic sets are almost inherently hidden traps, in particular the BeastII tileset's weasel(?) trap. The Biolab set also could perhaps use some darkening on the background; it's very easy to mistake terrain for background in some cases.
There are a couple of replays here that I think might be backroutes.
Some feedback on individual levels.
Spoiler
0104 "Water Maze 2" - Why the "2" in the name?
0111 "Bright Colors And Funky Tunes" - Great to see this music make a comeback! :D
0119 "Silenced by Shining Lights" - This was one of my favorites so far!
0121 "Little Wilma" - Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I felt this level would've worked just fine even without the traps and the disarmer.
0126 "The Circular Lemming Reactor" - Did I backroute this one? If not, it's weird that it's impossible (as far as I can tell) to not get the walker pickup skills, yet they don't need to be used. They would be useful if a lemming is facing the wrong way upon reaching the bottom - except I had a spare platformer that would've been just as capable of solving that issue for an unlimited number of lemmings, rather than the limited number the walkers could help (though as I had no lemmings go the wrong way, I didn't need that either).
0127 "Dr Do-ping's Hideout" - Another especially great one.
0128 "Lamentations of the Lemmings" - It took me quite a while to notice the lattice structure of the wall could be used to gain height. Once I figured that out, this level was pretty straightforward.
0129 "Bring In The Siege Engineer" - I smell a backroute on this one.
0132 "McLemming's Climber Course" - I smell an even bigger backroute here.
0133 "At The Breaking Point" - A very good level, but I also felt this was a huge difficulty spike compared to the rest of the rank (aside from 0141).
0136 "Bloom and Doom" - If this is intended, it's very nicely hidden. :D
0138 "Sunny Side Down" - This level was extremely easy compared to the ones around it. A good level, but a very easy one.
0140 "Fall Like An Egyptian" - Another particularly great one.
V 2.9 is out!Based on namida's feedback the following changes for rank 1 were made:
Level swap:
- 1 33 <--> 1 38
Backroute fixes:
- 1 26 (locked the RR, - 1 platformer, 1 pick-up skill removed, some steel added)
- 1 29 (some steel added)
Comments on namida's comments:
Quote
I felt that the X-of-everything levels (and a couple of other meant-to-be-simple ones) were more long and tedious than they needed to be, with many such levels taking over 10 minutes in-game time. However, once I got past those and into the puzzles, I really enjoyed this pack so far! I also find - though this isn't really your fault - that the traps in some graphic sets are almost inherently hidden traps, in particular the BeastII tileset's weasel(?) trap. The Biolab set also could perhaps use some darkening on the background; it's very easy to mistake terrain for background in some cases.
The bunch of very long levels in the earlier stages of the pack are indeed made a bit tedious by design I must admit.
They can easily be shorter no discussion and convincing needed there! They are not meant to be very great, but there is another reason why they are made this way.
I plan to teach
routine and endurance here, as I think this one of the first major things a new player desperatly needs.
Just assign skills and get through these levels moderately efficient, use a lot of skills, gain more of a feeling for the abilities. This routine and the endurance to tackle long tasks I see as very critical things a player needs to increase their skill level. It's not just learning tricks!
This routine for example enables the ability to see the more hidden usages of tricks and simple assignments and is the first step of seeing solution patterns.
I also rather have a few long X-of-everything levels than a ton like the old game here. I still see them very nessesary, because of my own experiences on how I learned Lemmings. I learned so much in terms of basic skills by simply getting through larger landscapes with a bunch of skills in the beginning of playing custom levels.
Also this prepares for longer tasks in the future by developing the nessesary endurance.
I still tried to keep them to a reasonable number though and tried to find a balance between these long tasks and short puzzles in this first rank.
But I could write whole topics here and I think everyone has their own philosophy to teach things in the end.
Now to the more level related:
Spoiler
Quote0104 "Water Maze 2" - Why the "2" in the name?
Fishthekiller had Water Maze 1. I decided to create a more refined one. ;P
Quote0121 "Little Wilma" - Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I felt this level would've worked just fine even without the traps and the disarmer.
Totally! My goal is more to hammer into the players brains that permanent skills can be cloned. So I added another variable, even if it's otherwise redundant.
Quote0126 "The Circular Lemming Reactor" - Did I backroute this one? If not, it's weird that it's impossible (as far as I can tell) to not get the walker pickup skills, yet they don't need to be used. They would be useful if a lemming is facing the wrong way upon reaching the bottom - except I had a spare platformer that would've been just as capable of solving that issue for an unlimited number of lemmings, rather than the limited number the walkers could help (though as I had no lemmings go the wrong way, I didn't need that either).
Backroute + the pick-ups are only there to give an option to reduce walking times. ;)
Quote0132 "McLemming's Climber Course" - I smell an even bigger backroute here.
This is a fine alternative. ;) I just want to teach creating a smooth wall there. The second way is using another lem with a basher+walker while the digger starts.
Quote0136 "Bloom and Doom" - If this is intended, it's very nicely hidden
There are variations here, so you got a few options. ;)
And I must say this loud:
I smiled so much over your 1 41 attempt!! It's just like I walked into a time machine and watched your Reunion 1 41 attempt again for the first time! Some things never change! :laugh:
QuoteI smiled so much over your 1 41 attempt!! It's just like I walked into a time machine and watched your Reunion 1 41 attempt again for the first time! Some things never change! :laugh:
I forget what exactly went on there beyond "I backrouted it with a solution much more complicated than it needed to be" (and let's wait until I've solved it to clarify that any further, or at least spoiler tag it), but one thing has definitely changed: You successfully managed to prevent what I was trying this time. :P
Here's my re-solves of 0126 and 0129. (Haven't looked at 0141 again yet.)
Quote from: namida on March 30, 2019, 08:42:44 PM
Here's my re-solves of 0126 and 0129. (Haven't looked at 0141 again yet.)
Exactly intended! :thumbsup:
Aaand, 0141 solved. Not sure if this is intended; a couple of the skills had to be
very precise.
Spoiler
If this is intended - basically, the reason I failed before is that I spent so much time thinking about how to contain the crowd, that I didn't stop to think "do I even need to contain the crowd, or can I just delay them a bit?"
This was a very nice level!
Exactly intended! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Basically I wanted that 3 builder block from the last Reunion 1st rank level to return + getting the trick from "Sactum of Nippius" in and that little platformer trick to round off the core of the tricks. ;)
Completed the first
10 20 levels of Neutrality. Holy shit, this is a HUGE step up in difficulty from the first rank - at least at first; I felt the difficulty dropped a bit as I got further into the rank. Though I'm still only half way, so no doubt it'll pick up again.
Individual level comments
0201 "Arkon" - To be honest, I think this was the second-hardest of these levels (after 0207)! (EDIT: This was written before I solved 0211 to 0220; I'd now say 0214 is harder as well.) I'm not sure if this is intended or not - on one hand, the level layout fits just right for this solution, but on the other hand, it feels kind of brute-force-y.
0202 "Midnight Stroll" - Excellent level! It seemed impossible at first, until I realised I just had to get a non-glider to do the bottom platform (and get all the gliders past there first).
0203 "Let It Krachen" - This one wasn't particularly difficult, but it was very fun.
0204 "Move Beach! Get Out The Way!" - I wonder if the required precision on this level can be reduced a bit? It's a very clever puzzle, though.
0205 "Pandora's Cave" - I like the crowd control trick here, but everything beyond that feels very filler-y and most of the builders need to be pixel-perfect, despite that requirement not really adding anything to the level.
0206 "Cyclic Crowd Control" - Eh. It's very obvious how to do this one, it just takes a lot of fiddling to actually make it work.
0207 "Being High And Seeing Double" - This was definitely the hardest of these ones! But I'd also say it's the best level in the pack so far! Though I must say, there are a LOT of things I tried that failed by a single pixel here.
0208 "Let The Room Get Chiller" - Did you mean "Chillier" in the name? Anyway, this might be a backroute, but if not this was by far the easiest of these levels, and even easier than a lot of rank 1 levels.
0209 "Open The Port!" - Also fairly easy, although hard enough to be a 2nd rank breather level. I'm fairly sure this one was intended.
0210 "Racing Hearts" - I wasn't really the biggest fan of this one, it was more frustrating than anything else. (I do like the music, though!)
---
0211 "IchoTolot's Flying Circus" - Fun, but pretty simple.
0212 "Sever Sacrificium" - Very nice level! The general approach is obvious almost right away, but it took me a while to work out the finer details, especially the blocker trick.
0213 "Fence and Forget" - This was one of the easier ones, but still a nice level.
0214 "3791980" - Okay so first; any meaning behind the name? Anyway, this level was INCREDIBLE! It's another one that looked impossible at first, and turned out to have an amazing solution. I think this already knocked 0207 off the "best so far" spot.
0215 "Mysterious Glide" - This one was very easy.
0216 "Symmetrical Asymmetry" - So was this one.
0217 "A Little Bit Of Backlash" - Clever idea to do a cloner-based variant of that trick! I also solved this one quite quickly though.
0218 "Stress? Just Cool It!" - The general idea is obvious right away, and then it just becomes a matter of setting everything up correctly. Not a terrible level, but not one of my favorites either.
0219 "A Wizard Is Never Late" - This one was extremely easy. I figured out what to do right away; it took a few minutes to get the correct timing, but even that was fairly simple (nothing like eg. the previous level, that took quite a while to figure out the exact setup). I'd say apart from 0208 (which I suspect may have been a backroute) and 0211, this was the easiest level so far in this rank.
0220 "Snake Ways" - This one was also pretty easy, once I remembered that only falling / floating / gliding lemmings can't disarm (other skills will just be interrupted, not fall victim to the trap).
V 3.0 is out!Based on namida's feedback the following changes for rank 2 were made:
Fixed backroute:
- 2 08 (some terrain changes + the level name in-game was fixed; the file name still is the old one due to simplicity reasons and I don't think this matters much :P)
Positioning changes:
- 2 01
---> 203 (so the old 2 02 and 2 03 are 1 place earlier)
- (The new) 2 01
<--> 2 15
- 2 05
<--> 2 19
Comments on the feedback:A few of the "this was easy" cases I think come from the
you already know the trick special case here.
Prime examples would be:
Spoiler
fencer + basher in 2 13, miner interrupt + platformer in 2 16, the trick in 2 18, disarmer behavior in 2 20, I would even guess the intended route in 2 08 falls into this category.
For the ones where I had a similar feeling before I applied some changes.
What I would like to know/want you to know:
Spoiler
The old 2 01 "Arkon", I still think this isn't too difficult, but I moved it 2 placed further.
Yeah, I take the blame for the bloated 2nd half for 2 05 :P I just had too much fun creating the landscape here while experimenting with the tileset.
What was fiddly in 2 06? I never had any fiddly issues myself, or reported ones from beta testers. ???
I am very surprised that 2 07 was very hard. :lem-shocked:
Why was 2 10 frustraiting? So far this level was quite popular from the feedback I have gotten. But this could be a personal preference thing.
I am honored that 2 14 was a such a hit. The number is a) a reference to the L2 outdoor level which was named such a number as well and b) It's the telephone number for my local pizza delivery place as this was Simon and my theory what the original number stands for. ;P
2 17 was the one I was considering a bit hard here so a fast solving time surprises me a bit. Josh even had some problems here, but I think this comes down to you already know the trick.
The old 2 19 is nearly timingless when using the climber. ;)
Respose to your comments
I didn't already know the Fencer-Basher trick, though it wasn't hard to figure out. My first attempt was that, except starting the basher at the bottom of the fencer tunnel. When this didn't quite make it in time, I figured "oh wait, a basher will probably keep going in a fencer tunnel" and tried it.
0206, I had a lot of cases where the crowd ended up in the wrong place and some died / etc.
I think 0210 probably is a preference thing, yeah. Despite having made a few levels of a somewhat similar style myself (eg. "Splittin' Like Crazy" from LPO), I'm not the biggest fan of them when it comes to playing.
Looked at the next three levels - I say "looked at" because I only actually solved one of them.
Individual level feedback
0221 "Tonight It Is Showtime" - I honestly don't have the faintest clue what I'm meant to be doing here. There doesn't appear to be any way to get a lemming down to the bottom without first using a builder. However, there's no way to get the second builder pickup without using another builder, except by digging straight down, and I can't see any way to safely manage the crowd while doing this other than two digger tunnels, but having them offset like this means falling straight past the pickup. Unless I'm overlooking something that should be obvious, this level is far too hard for the 2nd rank.
0222 "Basher Laboratory GRO" - Yeah, I don't really think using that trick in a setup that requires 11 bashers, with other elements of the solution both before and after it, while requiring it to be done at the right timing, was a good idea. To be honest, I don't really think using that trick at all, outside of maybe a setup that just uses one or two bashers, or in a proof-of-concept level containing nothing but the trick, is a good idea. Aside from one minor element near the end, I could tell how to solve this level as soon as I saw it, but actually executing it was a nightmare. Sorry, but this is by far the worst level in the pack so far.
0223 "Go On, Make Their Day" - This one looks like it probably has a fair and reasonable-for-the-position solution, but I'm a bit burnt out after the last two to try much for now... I'll continue later.
Quote from: namida on April 07, 2019, 04:04:53 AM
Looked at the next three levels - I say "looked at" because I only actually solved one of them.
Individual level feedback
0221 "Tonight It Is Showtime" - I honestly don't have the faintest clue what I'm meant to be doing here. There doesn't appear to be any way to get a lemming down to the bottom without first using a builder. However, there's no way to get the second builder pickup without using another builder, except by digging straight down, and I can't see any way to safely manage the crowd while doing this other than two digger tunnels, but having them offset like this means falling straight past the pickup. Unless I'm overlooking something that should be obvious, this level is far too hard for the 2nd rank.
0222 "Basher Laboratory GRO" - Yeah, I don't really think using that trick in a setup that requires 11 bashers, with other elements of the solution both before and after it, while requiring it to be done at the right timing, was a good idea. To be honest, I don't really think using that trick at all, outside of maybe a setup that just uses one or two bashers, or in a proof-of-concept level containing nothing but the trick, is a good idea. Aside from one minor element near the end, I could tell how to solve this level as soon as I saw it, but actually executing it was a nightmare. Sorry, but this is by far the worst level in the pack so far.
0223 "Go On, Make Their Day" - This one looks like it probably has a fair and reasonable-for-the-position solution, but I'm a bit burnt out after the last two to try much for now... I'll continue later.
Comments:
Spoiler
2 21: I am actually quite surprised that this level gives you much trouble as currently it has not proven to be a major roadblock and this level actually exists because of a trick I learned from you in one of your early ranked levels. :P I will judge it after it is solved.
2 22: Intended solution, except the climber just could have done the exit path earlier without having to bash on the steel a few times. How exactly are you executing it that it requires much timing. ??? I simply just assign a basher whenever a lem stands on the most right pixel of the basher mask and that is all that needs to be done to execute it. I think we have different trick preferences here as I was quite impressed with this trick when I saw it in one of Gronkling's levels.
I can at least say that this is the most extend to which you have to use this trick in this pack. :)
Re: 0222
It's not timing in the sense of everything needs to be perfect, but rather - release the crowd too early? Have to do the whole 11-basher setup again. Or too late, same thing. Or as another example - I didn't originally realise I needed to build-swim-build back, because I assumed I'd use the basher-stairs again near the exit. To change this, yet again, I had to do the basher thing again. Even with the replay editing features, this gets frustrating very quickly. This might not have been so bad if the basher thing was done as the first or last thing in the level (because in that case I can either cut off after it, or not do it unless everything else was right, respectively), but when it's in the middle of the solution...
Re:
Spoiler
There is no need to time the crowd and I never saw anyone attempt this, therefore I didn't even consider this to be a problem.
You can have that 1 lem do ALL the work then release. No need for doing the basher trick before everything is set up and ready for the crowd. So no redoing is nessesary that I assured while creating the level.
I've attached a replay to demonstrate this.
V 3.1 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 37 (some terrain changes)
- 4 40 (solution heavily altered - this includes terrain, skill, timer and save requirement changes)
V 3.2 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 37 (added a climber pick-up skill and therefore -1 climber)
- 4 40 (readded the OWW)
V 3.3 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 41 (made the solution more efficient --> -1 climber, -1 builder, -1 basher, added a walker and a builder pick-up skill and therefore -1 walker and -1 builder)
V 3.4 is out!
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 4 41 (-1 glider, also a time limit of 4:00 has been added [The level is even possible to solve in just under 3:00])
Resolved 0208, solved 0221. I haven't yet looked at 0223 again (or anything after it).
Individual level comments
0208 "Let The Room Get Chillier" - Feels like it might be intended, not sure. I'd definitely say this is a more advanced trick than you're thinking it is...
0221 "Tonight It Is Showtime!" - If this is intended, then it's definitely way too hard for the position. But I suspect this might just be the most elaborate backroute ever, especially in light of the fact that it misses 3 of the pickup skills (including the builder) - though it does use every initial skill and every pickup skill it does get.
V 3.5 is out!The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 21 (added the builder as pick-up skills and so -1 builder) I also hope this fix will also reduce the entropy on this level as you won't have builders anymore at the start.
Comments to namida's feedback:
Spoiler
- 2 08 is intended, but no RR change is nessesary.
I don't think this trick is too advanced here as I've had a person with not very much- experience record his solving on video and he did not have much trouble here. Solving time was only ~17 minutes and he had to newly discover it; reference though it is in german: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm633b94le0&list=PLsuchTlhr9Yz5TZEnkDLypwINNF5l2rMe&index=19
- 2 21 Yes it's a big backroute. I hope with the fix taking away the builder at the start will stop a lot of unintended ideas and therefore reducing entropy and difficulty.
0221 resolved.
Spoiler
Feels like this one might be intended. But yeah, this is by far the hardest level up to this point. This trick feels far more obscure than most of the other ones around this point.
Then I will reconsider the positioning, but probably wait after you solved the rest of the rank to maybe find a suitable swap with a level that might be too easy for it's positioning. :)
Solved up to 26; 27 has me stumped again. I think I've figured out one of the major tricks on it, but still can't see how the rest of the solution fits together.
Already given feedback on 21 and 22; for the rest:
Individual level feedback
0223 "Go Ahead! Make Their Day!" - Great level! :D
0224 "Victory Is Inevitable" - Far too easy for the position, but still a good level.
0225 "Path To Abandonment" - I suspect this is a major backroute.
0226 "Speak To The Hand" - Likewise.
V 3.6 is out!
The following levels have swapped their position:
- 2 07 <--> 2 24
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
-2 25 (-1 stacker, +1 basher, some terrain changes; this was a little problem child during testing and I think the stacker is the cause here --> let's get rid of it ;))
-2 26 (some terrain changes)
Resolved.
Individual level feedback
0225 "Path To Abandonment" - Re-backrouted. :evil:
0226 "Speak To The Hand" - This one, on the other hand, might be intended; though I could also see it being a backroute too. Good level if this is intended! On a side note, minor trigger area glitch - have a climber dig the far right side of the main structure, then watch what happens re: interaction with the spikes. I can't see any backroutes that arise as a result of this though.
V 3.7 is out!I've added the standard music rotation in case a person doesn't have the music tracks.
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
-2 25 (added some steel)
The following levels have received a little terrain fix:
- 1 28
- 2 26 (in both cases it was possible to walk under a set of spikes)
Comment on namida's feedback:
Spoiler
2 26: This is not intended, but you used the trick I wanted with the trap ---> replay saved and you contributed the 2nd official solution, even if I would consider it a bit more complicated than the original one. ;)
Spoiler
You could have just dug at the right edge at the top after you turned with a platformer there --> digger bashes left + mines to the crowd, while a 2nd climber does the bridge+disarm
Heyaa, my Pacifism solutions are attached! I played v3.5 so only 1-28 is maybe not working or so (?).
Pacifism could be the hardest starter rating in any pack that has this many ratings in an ascending difficulty order, so yeah, I'm not going to try to clear most of the pack before posting my solutions and comments so far. And considering how other people have done, the last rating of Lemmings Reunion might be at the same level of difficulty as maybe something like the third rating in United? :P Yeah, well see then, maybe Tension rating is the ultimate rating in this pack I (and maybe many other people) dare to tackle, who knows?! :D Anyway, this pack feels very ambitious in its scope, and I kind of like it!
Levels I don't know if I solved acceptably: Pacifism 27: Dr. Do-Ping's Hideout and 29: Bring in the Siege Engineer!
Levels I consider original or creative: Pacifism 13: Village Of Winds, 17: More Resistance!, 20: Silent Partner, 26: The Circular Lemming Reactor, 31: Slipstream
Pacifism 41: As Far As Peace Can Go - No idea what's the tileset but the liquid here looks fantastic in motion! Also the song is nice in that ending part.
Thanks for the replays. :thumbsup: Will look through them in detail tomorrow.
I just checked: Pacifism 27: Dr. Do-Ping's Hideout and 29: Bring in the Siege Engineer! are indeed intended! ;)
Pacifism 41: As Far As Peace Can Go will need a minor fix though. ;P
V 3.8 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 1 41 (some minor terrain changes)
Spoiler
I smoothen out the terain at the start so Akseli must (hopefully) invest another builder here. ;)
Resolved 0225.
Spoiler
Might still be a backroute, as I have a basher left over, but if it is a backroute it's nowhere near as severe as my earlier ones were. If this is intended, it's quite a nice level - even this took me a while to figure out.
V 3.9 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 01 (some minor terrain/steel changes)
@namida:
Spoiler
This is acceptable. You used the trick I wanted once at the bottom and your top trick is more complicated than that. With the basher you could have used the same trick twice at the top and bottom.
Solved 0227. I saw this almost right away when I came back to the level, not sure how I overlooked it before (too much trying to figure out trickier stuff, I guess).
Here's my best attempt so far at 0228; unfortunately, it falls short on time, and even if it didn't, would save 1 lemming fewer than needed. No hints yet, thanks.
Re: 0227
You know how I mentioned before "I think I've figured out one trick"? This was actually referencing the blocker-miner thing. Of course the much simpler trick near the exit, is the part I was overlooking. xD
2 27 is 100% intended. :)
2 28 had a few backroutes in the past and I am looking forward to see if it is fixed now. ;)
V 4.0 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 06 (+ 1 disarmer and some traps to disarm were added)
- 5 07 (some steel added and 1 of the bombers is now a pick-up skill)
Haven't been able to complete 0228 yet, but I did get this replay which fails by only a couple of seconds... I'm fairly sure it's not possible to improve this into a working solution, but not 100% sure (this is already the result of a lot of improvement from a replay that initially failed by ~10 seconds).
The intended way leaves only ~ 7 secs on the clock and the timer is certainly needed as I know there are quite a few backroutes needing these extra 10 secs.
I don't want to cull another 5 secs from the clock as this could make a few slightly less efficient intended attempts failing.
But I had an idea to at least block your almost working solution you posted here and eliminate a few unkown variables in the process....
V 4.1 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 28 (1 platformer is now a pick-up skill)
Backroutes, backroutes, more backroutes.....
V 4.2 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 05 (added some terrain)
- 5 06 (added some terrain)
0228 solved, though I suspect it's a backroute, as it cuts it very close on time.
Quote from: namida on April 24, 2019, 07:40:17 PM
0228 solved, though I suspect it's a backroute, as it cuts it very close on time.
It's actually a slight variation (a bit less efficient and clean) of the intended route. I'll pm you my replay so that you can see the difference. But this is 100% acceptable
Also solved 0229. Might be a backroute, but could be intended, not completely sure.
Comments
0228 "Firewalking" - A good level, though a bit on the difficult side.
0229 "Not An Option!" - If this is intended, it's quite easy for the position.
QuoteAlso solved 0229. Might be a backroute, but could be intended, not completely sure.
Nope, backroute. Actually this level was already a bit of a problem child and an accepted solution from a tester was kind of on the edge.....
V 4.3 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 1 29 (replaced the bomber with a pick-up skill)
Re-backrouted. :P
V 4.4 is out! :)
The following levels have swapped position:
2 21 <--> 2 29
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- (the new) 2 21 (the bomber is back again and some terrain changes were made)
- 5 07 (added some steel)
V 4.5 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 21 (increased the RR to 90)
This won't block the alternative route that was sent to me, but it will block the ability to save 20 Lemmings and an extra skill.
V 4.6 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 21 (increased the RR to 99)
V 4.7 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 07 (added a OWW)
V 4.8 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 08 (added a OWW)
Re-solved (now) 0221. This feels intended. Nice level if so.
@namida: This is 100% intended! :thumbsup:
For the other front in the 5th rank:
V 4.9 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 10 (added a OWW)
- 5 11 (some terrain additions)
- 5 12 (added a OWW)
V 5.0 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 11 (-1 builder, +1 platformer)
- 5 12 (added some terrain)
V 5.1 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 11 (added some terrain)
V 5.2 is out! :)
I've added the new collaboration level to the bonus rank:
- New level at position 6 10, the old 6 10 and levels after that have moved 1 position further as a result.
V 5.3 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (some terrain changes + extra steel)
V 5.4 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (extra steel added)
- 5 15 (1 builder is now a pick-up skill)
V 5.5 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (-2 walkers, +1 climber, some terrain removed)
V 5.6 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (+2 floaters, -2 bashers, -1 walker, -1 climber, some terrain changes)
It seems like this is another problem level. :P
V 5.7 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (added some steel)
V 5.8 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (added a OWW)
Well that was not the issue. :P
V 5.9 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (removed the OWW again, some terrain changes, +1 climber, +2 floater)
V 6.0 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (added some steel blocks)
The biggest problem-level yet. :P
V 6.1 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 14 (some terrain changes, +1 basher, -1 climber)
V 6.2 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 15 (added some steel)
V 6.3 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 15 (a digger is now a pick-up skill)
5 17, 5 18 and 5 19 were fine, but 5 16 still needs a little fix. :P
V 6.4 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 16 (a platform has been raised and some steel has been added)
Finished the first rank! :thumbsup: I was inspired to pick this up and work on it again by the Creator Commentary videos, since I wanted to be able to watch those without spoilers. Fortunately, it wasn't too hard to get myself unstuck. Some nice tricky levels and satisfying linchpins, especially towards the end of the rank.
I suspect a backroute on 1-31 Slipstream, so I've attached my replay.
1-36 Bloom and Doom was the hardest level for me in the rank, as there are lots of tempting blind alleys to follow.
Now that I've solved 1-37 Sanctum of Nippius, I'm not sure it needed to move that far. I solved it pretty quickly today, because I
knew I was on the right lines and I just had to spot one trick to make the route work, so I stared until it clicked :P It has much lower entropy than many of the surrounding levels, because you can place most of the skills immediately. Also
Spoiler
its current position is very close to another level using the same trick, which makes it easier to spot that trick there.
If you were to consider moving it back down, you could swap it with 1-29 Bring in the Siege Engineer, which is much trickier than its current position.
Thanks for the feedback. :)
V 6.5 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 1 31 (added a new OWW, +2 climbers)
I've decided against moving 1 37 back as you were by far not the only one having at least some sort of problems there and the trick is easily missed.
Also:
Spoiler
It having the same trick as 1 41 is not too bad as that level is already quite tricky with all the other tricks in it. If the player remembers I've reached my goal here.
V 6.6 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 20 (+5 save requirement, -5 swimmer, -2 bomber pick-up skills, +1 platformer, some terrain changes, relocated the disarmer pick-up skill)
V 6.7 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 21 (some terrain changes)
Hi, I would like to inform you about a solution I have found for Genocide 12, that is very obviously a backroute. I dont have the replay right now but it works like this:
Spoiler
You need a lemming from the left hatch on the left part of the level (so it wont have steel below it) walking to the left and another lemming very close to it walking to the right. Assign the first lemming as a digger and the second one as a builder to quickly patch the diggers pit.(you may need to assign the builder first). If you nail the timing you will end having only the digger and another lemming in the diggers pit at most. Make them both floaters. Use a basher to merge the lemmings from both hatches.
When the digger is some pixels lower than the steel make it a basher and you will have a very large bashers tunnel than goes above the exit and surpasses it. Surpass the exit, and when you find a suitable icicle on the roof, make it a digger and at the right point a blocker , so it will become a faller and it will leave the icicle with a small step that will help reduce the splat height. When both lemmings fall, make them builders, so they can build a little to the left, reducing further the splat height, and then you can lead the other lemmings to the exit.
QuoteHi, I would like to inform you about a solution I have found for Genocide 12, that is very obviously a backroute. I dont have the replay right now but it works like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Thank you very much for reporting this! :thumbsup:
As a result:
V 6.8 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 12 (added some steel)
V 6.9 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 24 (added some steel, added a trap)
V 7.0 is out! :)
The following levels have received a preemptive backroute fix:
- 5 27 (added some steel)
V 7.1 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 28 (made the bottom left teleporter extra climber safe)
New levels:
- 6 24 (from contest #17)
- 6 25 (from contest #17)
- 6 26 (single level made with the new Renaissance tileset)
V 7.2 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 13 (added a OWW and changed some terrain)
- 2 14 (changed some terrain)
- 2 27 (a miner is now a pick-up skill)
- 2 34 (a miner is now a pick-up skill)
- 2 37 (2 bombers are now pick-up skills)
1 level has received some non-backroute related changes:
- 2 22 (+5 bashers)
V 7.3 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 26 (added a OWW, intended solution changed to an alternative as a result)
V 7.4 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 2 26 (-1 platformer, a user found an even better+cleaner route that doesn't need the platformer)
V 7.5 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 3 08 (some terrain changes, RR increased to 95)
I just want to quickly mention that I haven't abandoned this pack and I'm planning on continuing it soon ;)
Finally got back to playing some more of this. I've resolved two of the levels that my existing replays no longer work for.
The former, I believe I already had the intended solution, but a separate fix has broken my replay? The latter I recall backrouting; and if this is now the intended solution, it's a very good level! :D
I had another look at Firewalking, but haven't managed to solve it yet. I found a save-7 solution, and a solution that only fails due to time, but nothing that solves the level yet.
Just in case: It shouldn't matter, but I made these replays using the V12.6.0 experimental.
EDIT: Solved Firewalking too now.
Spoiler
I'm not sure if this is intended, especially with the way the second glider is used. If it is - while I like the concept behind this level, I feel the time limit makes it frustratingly tight in practice. The last 20mins or so I spent on this level was simply optimizing this solution to the point it didn't fail due to time - one attempt failed by just a few frames, even.
EDIT: And the next.
Neutrality 30 "Like An Eagle In The Wind"
Nice level. This level was MUCH easier than Firewalkers IMO. I solved it without the walker, although I'm pretty sure this is just a variation of the intended solution rather than a backroute - I suspect the intended way is to place the first stacker to the left of where the digger goes, instead of using it to turn around, instead using the walker to turn around; and otherwise doing the same thing I did, with no need to place the digger so precisely.
Now of course, with that being said - I myself have used that stacker-digger trick a few times, which may be a significant part of why I found it so easy.
EDIT: And one more.
Neutrality 31 "Ancient Digging Magic"
Oooh, this is a very nice one! Took me quite a while to spot the solution here.
I've made some attempts at Neutrality 32. I've found a very nice lose-1 solution, but that doesn't mean all that much when it's a 100%er. :P
Thanks for the replays. :)
Firewalking:
Spoiler
Your solution is intended apart from 1 difference that makes it slower, therefore creating time problems: I block with the first Lemming that lands on the stacker and not the 2nd. I can't block your way, or the intended solution will be very close to running out of time, but I can't increase the timer or other glaring backroutes will be possible. The 100% intended way has ~7 seconds left over.
Like An Eagle In The Wind: You solved it correctly and also delivered the correct explanation about the leftover skill. ;)
Ancient Digging Magic: Acceptable variant. :)
Was Neutrality 26 also intended?
My solutions to Neutrality 1 to 15 except for Neutrality8.
I skipped Pacifism since I already watch the creator commentary videos on your youtube...
@namida: Yes, you got the new intended solution. :)
@Armani: First of all, welcome to the forum! :thumbsup:
Your solutions are all intended or just very slight alternatives. Great job! :)
Thank you for your welcoming
I attached replay to Neutrality16~34 except for level 20, 25, 32
In level Neutrality 20, can I disarm the snakes?
The snake located below the steel box always swallow my disarmer lemming.:(
All of your attached replays are again intended or acceptable alternatives, good job. :)
Regarding Neutrality 20:
Spoiler
If you simply let your disarmer fall then: No, the snakes cannot be disarmed. The level aims to teach that disarmers who are currently falling cannot disarm and therefore get caught by traps. They also cannot disarm traps that are currently busy eating a lemming.
Hint:
Spoiler
But you still want to disarm under the steel box. Maybe you can create a situation where it is possible to disarm later? ???
V 7.6 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 5 28 (added some steel)
5 28 seems to be the biggest roadblock so far. Only 2 fixes needed until this point, but the intended solution still remains hidden. ;)
I solved some more levels of neutrality.
Here's my solution for rest of the levels and my best attempts so far for level 32 and 41.
I have downloaded and played three or four other packs from the forum and I feel lemmings united is the toughest among them.
Can you recommend me some easier packs for me to build up more skills?
I'm afraid to start tension level for now. :(
Quote from: Armani on September 08, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
I solved some more levels of neutrality.
Here's my solution for rest of the levels and my best attempts so far for level 32 and 41.
I have downloaded and played three or four other packs from the forum and I feel lemmings united is the toughest among them.
Can you recommend me some easier packs for me to build up more skills?
I'm afraid to start tension level for now. :(
All solutions are either intended or acceptable alternatives! Good job. :thumbsup:
For 32:
Spoiler
Your first part is correct, but the 2nd part is still wrong.
For 41:
Spoiler
You've nearly got it! You are missing 1 already known trick that can save you another destructive skill and then it should be easy mode. ;)
For easier packs that are still pretty be challenging in the later ranks I could recommend the classic packs DoveLems and PimoLems packs from Dodochacalo and Pieuw that I did the NL conversions for. Also the Lemmings Plus series is always worth a peek, the earlier entries are usually the easiest ones there.
If you still want it challenging but not yet United challenging I could also recommend my earlier work: Lemmings Reunion. It's still quite hard, but not United hard. Let's say Neutrality is already ~4th rank territory there.
Thanks a lot.
I'll play your recommendation packs and come back to play tension levels :)
My last two solutions for Neutrality.
Both solutions are exactly intended. :thumbsup:
I solved several levels of Tension rank before returning to base.
I'm really enjoying your pack :)
I love all those new tricks and challenging puzzle levels.
Here I attached my solution replays.
Spoiler
0303 - I had hard time solving this level since I din't notice the pickup skill inside the terrain. I clear this level as soon as I turned off the physics mode.:(
0305 - If this is the intended way, toughest level so far for me. Especially on how to release the crowd at the end.
0306 - Maybe I backrouted this. I din't use digger between the steel structure to go downstair which seems to be the key point of the level.
0308 - My favorite level so far:)
0313 - Another backroute maybe. I didn't use a disarmer and a basher. The replay is quite long.(21minutes)
0315,0318 - Last cloner was used only to increase the # of lemmings but I think these are acceptable solutions.
I'm stuck on 0310 and 0317, but I think I've figured out the major trick of the levels so I can clear them myself later.:)
V 7.7 is out! :)
The following levels have received a backroute fix:
- 3 13 (a platformer is now a pickup skill)
- 3 14 (added some steel)
- 3 15 (added some steel)
The following levels have received technical fixes:
- 3 03 (fixed some visuals)
- 4 24 (readded the pickup skills as the old ones were unviable)
@Armani thanks for the replays. :)
I hope I made the pick-up skill on top (I hope it was displayed on top for you) of the terrain in 3 03 more noticable with a green bush. In the process I also found a few misplaced steel blocks as well. You see the caused backroutes in the fixes. The rest were either intended or acceptable variants (for example there is an easier way to release the crowd on 3 05). :)
V 7.8 is out! :)
The following levels have received technical fixes:
- 4 24 (changed to the default pickup skills)
V 7.9 is out! :)
Pack is made fit for 12.7.0! Changes:
The zip is now to be extracted in the main NL folder instead of inside the levels folder.
New levels:
- 6 08 (the levels afterwards are therefore 1 position further below now)
- 6 15 (the levels afterwards are therefore 1 position further below now)
The following levels have received technical fixes:
- 6 28 (changed to the default pickup skills)
- Some circuit levels were manually changed from a duplicated piece inside the style to the main one.
Visual fixes, because of the fire pit graphic change:
- 1 03
- 2 07
- 2 28
- 4 28
- 6 25
The levels were not cleansed yet as this still seems a bit buggy in terms of pack structure. ;P
V 8.0 is out!
Levels cleansed.
Solved two more levels.
Spoiler
Neutrality 32 "Machines of our Disgrace" - Very nice level; this stumped me a while back and took me quite a while to solve when I came back to it.
Neutrality 33 "Like a Sandworm" - Also a nice level, but much easier than the last; I solved it almost right away.
Both replays are 100% intended. :thumbsup:
And yes, 32 is a little roadblock placed by me along the way. ;)
Spoiler
With the additional intend to show of that digger/stacker interaction.
I'm back here to play this pack!
Spoiler
Tension19 Vertigo : One builder was no enough to cross that gap at the middle and this gave me a huge hint to solve the level. I also like the way of using miner at the end. :thumbsup:
Tension20 Totally Stoned : Some nice decoy terrain and water gap!
Tension21 Dragon Slayer : Exact posiont of the miner was the key to this level I think.
Tension22 Mindshell : I think this level is totally depends on whether player notice the trick at the very beginning and I was lucky to find it early.
Tension23 Dare to Share : This levels was a little bit easy than other levels since the positions of the two miners were quite obvious.
Tension24 Construct Additional Pylons! : To be honest, I'm not a big fan of large constructive skill-heavy level but I really enjoy this level because I'm a BIG fan of Starcraft series :P
Tension25 Step Up!(or Don't) : Simple but contains clever trick and I like that :thumbsup:
Tension26 Let Us Out! : I guess I backrouted this level since the last two cloners were used meaninglessly and didn't use a climber.
Tension27 Step it Down! : This one is my favorite among the levels today :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I didn't need difficult and complex tricks to solve the level but still the level was challenging and need to think hard!
Tension28 Backyard Garden : I think I solve this level easily since I was planning to make a similar level for the contest(but give up in the end:P)
Tension29 Tomb of Ichot'olot : I'm not sure if my solution is intended or not because the last basher had to be used very precisely.
Tension30 Just Do It Up : I have some left over skills. Seems acceptable variance ? or not I'm not sure
Tension31 Locked in : Wow this level is so good and I really enjoy and had fun playing this level. :D
Tension32 Awakening of Agressions : I guess the position of the digger was very important in this level to send a pioneer lemming.
Tension33 Eyes in the Dark : I solve this level easily since the position of the stoner and miner(with cloner) seems obvious.
Solved 5 more levels.
Spoiler
Tension34 Forgotten Refinery : I think this level is very fiddly to execute(of course in case that my solution is intended) Or I may overlooked something obvious. Anyway I solved the level :D
Tension35 Oh, it's Irresistible! : Nice little puzzle level :thumbsup: I can see many levels that clever positioning of miner is required in your pack and I like that as miner is one of my favorite lemmings skills.
Tension36 Monachopsis : Seems a lot easier than the levels in same rank.
Tension37 This Dome is Our Home : At first, I thought this level is impossible to solve and I was wrong. Was a really cool level!
Tension38 The Machine : How can you make such an simple but at the same time challenging puzzle level? :thumbsup: When I was to make a challenging level, the level usually become very nasty and looks uninteresting :(
V 8.1 is out!Some backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 3 26 (has now 2 new pickup-skills and a water pit)
- 3 34 (made a water gap wider)
Comments:
Tension26 Let Us Out! : This is a problematic level to fix, but I hope this will at least push it a little bit in the right direction
Tension29 Tomb of Ichot'olot : Let's say it's an acceptable alternative, but your precision is not needed in the intended route.
Spoiler
Your early sacrifice is the reason you made your life harder in the end part.
Tension30 Just Do It Up: You basically found a more efficient challenge route. I will accept this though. ;)
Tension34 Forgotten Refinery : Let's say after the fix you should need to get back to the drawing board here. ;) This level needed quite a few fixes already!
Again, thanks for the nice comments and feedback! :thumbsup:
Looks like no backroutes today :D
Today's levels were aesthetically pleasing especially boss level of the rank looks beautiful :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Tension39 Double Vortex : I like the concept of the level. Each crowd had to gather pick up skills for the other crowd. I save one more lemming than required and I think there's no problem increase the save requirement by 1.
Tension40 Deviate! : This level is my new favorite level of this pack. I really enjoyed the level. The two specialists(swimmer and disarmer) crossed the whole map to make safe path for the crowd :thumbsup:
Tension41 The Igniting Spark : I could see some nice skills with stoners! Changing the direction of a falling lemming, making a unidirectional path, combining with bomber to make a staircase etc.
Can't wait to play next rank :D
QuoteLooks like no backroutes today
And that's where you're wrong. ;)
V 8.2 is out!Backroute fixe based on Armani's replays:
- 3 41 (has now an extra bomber pickup and a 12 minute timer)
Yes, a 12 minute timer, just to deny that long waiting game you did there. I intend no such thing, there is a cleaner way! Also some of the tricks you mentioned in that replay where not really intended. ;) The timer should not get in the way of any solutions without the waiting game.
Also thanks for the compliment for 3 40, it's also one of my favorites. :)
Onto the 4th rank now! :thumbsup:
Some epic levels in War rank!
Spoiler
War1 I Demand A Builder! : Some nice tricks are included and not that hard I think.
War2 Well of Eternity : I felt this level is also somewhat easier than the level in previous rank. But I had fun playing this level. :D
War3 Stairs Of Sacrifice : Did I backroute this? I have some leftover skills.
War4 Don't Feed The Clams! : Finding the solution, I feed lots of lemmings to the clams :D
War5 Up The Fly Tower : This is an amazing level. Nice use of updraft and gliders!
War6 May The Skills Be With You : Those pick-up skills at the right bottom were all decoy!?? I didn't notice that early so I felt I was always in 1 builder short.
War7 Temple of Ichot'olot : I smell a backroute. I save 100%.(which means I didn't use a bomber)
War8 Mount Lemmerest : What a masterpiece! I think this is an artistic work rather than a lemmings level. :thumbsup:
War9 DYNAmic Circuit : I think this level is similar but more difficult version of "I Demand A Builder!". And also assigning blocker right in front of closed exit is so creative.
War10 Beam Me Up Lemmy! : Oh if a lemming that doing something pass the teleporter, that lemming continue his job at the receiver! Thank you for teaching me this. I got some inspiration for making my own levels.
War11 Hellraisers : I got a floater left. But I think I did lots of intended things so I guess it to be a minor backroute or acceptable variation..?
War12 The Climbing of the Zugspitze : Awesome layout with fitting song! Is Zugspitze a name of a mountain?
War13 Climbers Of the Swamp : Yes. That blocker in the air is the trick that I really like! I thought I can use this trick to change the directions of falling lemmings in the mid-air. And you teach me other ways to use this trick!
War14 There's Something In The Water : The title of the level was a huge spoiler. :D
Quote from: IchoTolot on January 02, 2020, 07:54:45 PM
And that's where you're wrong. ;)
That's so sad :'( I believed I found an intended one. I will look at the fixed version soon ;)
V 8.3 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 07 (added some extra water pits)
- 4 11 (added some steel)
Comments:
Spoiler
War3 Stairs Of Sacrifice : Acceptable alternative.
War6 May The Skills Be With You : You fell for my trap. ;)
War8 Mount Lemmerest : This level actually has 2 major solutions. You can also go left and then right and end up in the other exit. :)
War11 Hellraisers : It's even a major one, but it should be fixed now.
War12 The Climbing of the Zugspitze : Yes, it's a mountain in the very south of Germany.
It's getting more and more difficult :D
Spoiler
War15 Framed With The Best Skills : I thought that I could save a walker so I tried several times but it was impossible. The level required very effective using of every skill! I love that.
War16 Tomb Raiders : Miner connection, digger connection and basher connection all in one level :thumbsup:
War17 Shatterhail : Cute little level.
War18 United We Stand : Hardest level so far. I had to manipulate RR very often and very precisely. This level gave me a statisfying feel of accomplishment. :thumbsup: Thanks
War19 Kraft Und Licht : The music you used in shadow tileset really fit well and give a good vibe of midnight. Hopefully my solution is intended, as I didn't use much of the left side of the level.
War20 Harkonnen Force : I felt my solution is mostly intended except that I have a miner left.
Everything is fine in the current batch of replays. :)
In War 18 you made it a bit harder than nessesary at the beginning though. I am very impressed that you found the EXACTLY intended route in War 19! :thumbsup:
Only three for today.
Spoiler
War21 Center of Attention : A single hero lemming do all the jobs alone :lem-mindblown: I have some skills left.
War22 Under The Eyes Of Horus : I'm not sure if this is intended. Maybe if I optimize my solution, it seems like I can save a last digger.
War23 Wrath of the Lem King : Cool puzzle level! I really enjoyed it :thumbsup:
I am very pleased to see that all 3 levels are either intended or acceptable variants! :thumbsup:
Especially War 22! That one took quite a few versions to get it right! ;)
Spoiler
War25 Flesh Circuit And Bone : Not sure if this is intended.
War26 I, Lemming : Timing of the Builder + cloner was super important in this level!
War27 Abort the Experiment! : I think this level is easy for War rank. Maybe you wanted to teach player to cancel builder by assigning a basher I guess?
War28 Complex Complex : It seems intended except that I had a bomber left.
War29 On the Sunny Side of Life : Replay edit mode of Neolemmix helped me a lot in this level! It was Really fun and enjoyable :thumbsup:
War30 Journey To The Coast : I'm sure this is intended :D
War31 Tower of Darkness : I could see really clever use of stackers here.
War32 Eternally Revolving : Blocker and stoner are both used to contained crowd but they also have a difference! I could see many puzzle potentials in this level. :thumbsup:
War33 The Spirit Of Competition : It was the longest miner I have ever seen!
War34 Offworld : The builder position was really outside the box!
War35 Rising Like an Endless Crescendo : Not so difficult as it looks first. Pick-up skills guided me to the right solutions.
Edit : The zip folder has no replay for war24, so i added
V 8.4 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 25 (a builder is now a pick-up skill)
- 5 37 (a small visual error has been fixed)
Comments:
Spoiler
War25 Flesh Circuit And Bone : Nope backroute, but this level was a little problem child as well.
War27 Abort the Experiment! : I know another level using the same trick that has not been solved by various people for a long time because of it. I spend a week as well back in the days. I guess it's a either an easy or super-hard level.
War28 Complex Complex : There is an easier way with the bomber, but it has the same spirit. The intended bomber died in your replay as well though. :P
War33 The Spirit Of Competition : The first person to use the left exit. ;P
Finished War rank and came here with some backroutes :evil:
Spoiler
War36 Rise Over Run : I got a no swimmer solution :P
War37 An Artist's Life : The very first part of the level was the most difficult! I like the way how to split two gliders and making safe path for the crowd. :thumbsup:
War38 Imperial Basin : I see no need for the floater, maybe I backrouted this.
War39 Hysteria : Wow I really like this level. How effectively can I let the crowd down was the key and I had a lot of fun! :thumbsup: I had a basher left though.
War40 Floral Fury : If there were no replay edit mode in Neolemmix, maybe this level would takes several hours to solve
War41 Loss Of Lemmanity : I think I backrouted boss level of the rank. I use only one pair of teleporter and save some skills. Maybe the intended solution use the trick that was also used in "Climbers of the Swamp", but I'm not sure.
V 8.5 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 36 (Lem count down to 20, 2:00 Timer added, removed 2 walkers, added a swimmer, some terrain changes)
- 4 38 (added a OWW)
- 4 39 (half of the platformers are now a pick-up skill)
- 4 41 (3 builders and 2 blockers are now pick-ups)
Comments:
Spoiler
War36 Rise Over Run : Let's say I changed quite a few things up to counter this. Originally this was a rank 3 level, a lot of fixes increased the difficulty by an extreme ammount and it seems it still needed work.
War37 An Artist's Life : And suddenly the basher cancel is the most difficult part. ;)
War38 Imperial Basin : Yeah, backroute.
War39 Hysteria : Totally backrouted. Let's see how you fair with only half the platformers for the first part.
War41 Loss Of Lemmanity: That's a major backroute! hopefully fixed now.
I would propose to you to resolve all the backroutes first before going into rank 5. I really would like to know if the faults are truly fixed now. ???
On to the final difficulty rank!
Spoiler
Genocide1 QUOLA : Super clever puzzle! At first glance, it didn't look that difficult but when I play myself, this was a really difficult level.
Genocide2 Downrising : Nice breather level after really hard one for me.
Genocide3 You Gotta Party Harty! : Getting the crowd down and releasing all the blocker was really challenging.
Genocide4 Marble, Stone And Iron Breaks : I was happy to learn many tricks in this level! Especially I love that digger+builder at rightmost side of the level. At first, I thought that I should dig and turn the digger by assigning another lemming a blocker and finally bash him out. But there was a much more effective way!
Genocide5 Googly Eyed Coffins : I think this is the only backroute I found today. Many skills are left.
Genocide6 Chanson d'Automne : It was really hard to see the solution, especially the position of the first stoner was genius!
Genocide7 Braindead Mummys : Isolating a pioneer lemming to the bottom left was a bit fiddly but not super fiddly so I think it's okay. And I had a lot of fun reapting cloner + stoner to the glider!
Quote from: IchoTolot on January 08, 2020, 03:20:46 PM
I would propose to you to resolve all the backroutes first before going into rank 5. I really would like to know if the faults are truly fixed now. ???
Oh I'm sorry. It totally slipped my mind. I'll definitely look at all of them one by one. :D
Some resolved levels
Spoiler
War7 Temple of Ichot'olot : I think I got a right solution this time. Nice trick at the beginning!
War11 Hellraiser : I used all the skills hopefully this is intended.
And I could see some similar backroutes that are still valid in new version.
Spoiler
War36 Rise Over Run : This time, I used three swimmers but still some skills are left.
War38 Imperial Basin : Almost same backroute still exist.
War41 Loss of Lemanity : It seems like I found another backroute. A blocker is left and I didn't use bottom teleporter.
For the War39 Hysteria, I think it would take some more time to resolve it as it seems I need to try totally different approach.
V 8.6 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 11 (added some OWWs)
- 4 36 (added a trap)
- 4 38 (added some steel)
- 4 41 (added some electricity/fire)
- 5 03 (added some tererain)
- 5 05 (added some steel)
Thank you very much for these replays they are really helpng a lot! :thumbsup:
The extra check was definitly needed as you see in the fix log! :evil:
I think there were some backroutes in previous ranks as well (3 41 comes to my mind for example). If you have the time I would love to see if these are finally fixed as well. ;)
I bet there are no backroutes for today :D
Spoiler
Genocide 8 Pitch Black : Saving skills at the left part of the level was the key. I was surprised to see how small amount of skills were indeed needed here.
Genocide 9 Laboratory Evacuation : Yes. Replay edit mode helped me a lot again.
Genocide 10 Where Secrets Sway : This level should be one of my favorite! Very hard and some nice tricks included.
Genocide 11 Embracing Entropy : Rather easy than previous level for me.
And I resolved some backrouted levels.
Spoiler
Tension 26 Let Us Out : Now it seems intended!
Tension 41 The Igniting Spark : How about this? This time I didn't do long waiting game. But I'm not sure if the stoner I used in bottom left to contain crowd is intended or not.
War 36 Rise Over Run : This time I used all the skills. Please tell me this is intended. :D
War 38 Imperial Basin : Finally I can see why there should be a little hole for a floater to fall down. I guess this is intended. Wonderful level!
War 41 Loss of Lemanity : I used all the skills and all the teleporter at least once and didn't use some dirty tricks or something like that. :D
Genocide 3 You Gotta Party Harty! : This time, I even have a blocker left! :evil:
Genocide 5 Googly Eyed Coffins : It seems intended now!
V 8.7 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 03 (changed up some tererain)
Comments:
Spoiler
Tension 41 The Igniting Spark : Yes, the stoner part is not intended, but overall I declare it as close enough. A fix would also cause more harm to the level than good.
War 36 Rise Over Run : Finally! Good job! :thumbsup:
War 41 Loss of Lemanity : I call this accepted now.
Genocide 3 You Gotta Party Harty! : Yeah, that still needs work.
Genocide 10 Where Secrets Sway : I am glad that this one worked out nicely. :)
Here are bunch of new replays and some new backroutes also. :evil:
Spoiler
Genocide 12 Stone Cold Crazy : I didn't use any floater and two swimmers are left.
Genocide 13 Descent Into Cerberon : I have a climber left but I think my solution is close to intended...?
Genocide 14 Vortex Of Plans : I think this is intended! Using climber as late as possible was very important.
Genocide 15 The Ancient Curse of Ichot'olot : Nice use of stoner staircase!
Genocide 16 Regicide! : Wow this one was really difficult and hard to see the solution, espcially timing of the first stacker and basher!
Genocide 17 Radience : I like my solution but I didn't use any glider so this is a backroute maybe.
Genocide 18 Speak Through The Flower : I have a walker left. I guess the leftover walker is for containing the crowd at the beginning by digger+walker pit. But I didn't have to delay the crowd before bashing to the left as the pioneer lemming already had enough time to finish his job.
Genocide 19 Arctic Oscillation : A little bit precise but I like the gimmick of the level! :thumbsup:
Genocide 20 Links 2, Links 2, Links 2 3 4! : I didn't use pick-up glider and I think I saved too many lemmings. Maybe backroute.
V 8.8 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 12 (added some steel)
- 5 14 (added some steel)
- 5 17 (the blockers are now pick-ups)
- 5 20 (added more spike traps)
Comments:
Spoiler
Genocide 13 Descent Into Cerberon : The climber just let's you release the crowd earlier, but your solution is totally fine.
Genocide 14 Vortex Of Plans : Nope, big backroute. This level had a lot of oproblems already.
Genocide 17 Radience : Another big backroute.
Genocide 18 Speak Through The Flower : The extra walker just allows similar solution to work where the basher is placer further down. Your solution is totally intended.
Genocide 20 Links 2, Links 2, Links 2 3 4! : This is probably the biggest backroute in here.
All in all, it really shows that the rank 4 and 5 level have only been tested by 1 other person before. Therefore quite a bit of patching still needed. I am really grateful for the replays! :thumbsup:
I felt considerable difficulty spike from Genocide20, and I'll willing to, happily face it!
Spoiler
Genocide 21 I am the End of Fortune! : To be honest, I'm not a big fan of such a big level. :( I have a basher left.
Genocide 22 The Battle of Stirling : Nice trick with bomber :D
Genocide 23 IRON JUGGERNAUT : The level was very hard and interesting. Also I like the aesthetic of the level. :thumbsup: Just zooming out and waching the design of the levels was also fun. I have a digger left though.
Genocide 24 Delight And Angers : Easier than previous level. I really like the glider+stoner to make a platform for the builder part if this is intended. I have a basher left.
Genocide 25 Scorcher VI: Global Meltdown : I could see some clever tricks with blockers :thumbsup: especially the blocker used to make uni-directional pit to contain crowd!
Genocide 26 Laughs of Insanity : The position of the fencer was the key. I'm not sure my solution is totally intended but I guess the position of the fencer and last big basher is inteded.
And I resolved fixed levels!
Spoiler
Genocide 12 Stone Cold Crazy : This solution today is much more cool than yesterday, but I didn't see any needs for floaters yet.
Genocide 14 Vortex Of Plans : It seems closer to intended than before.
Genocide 17 Radience : I must say, I prefer new solution but I still have a blocker left.
Genocide 20 Links 2, Links 2, Links 2 3 4! : This time, I used pick-up glider and save 241 lemmings. I expect this to be intended or accepatable!
PS. It seems my contest level for rule 3 haven't been updated for several days. :(
V 8.9 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 14 (added more steel)
- 5 21 (tadded steel with a fireblower)
- 5 26 (RR increase to 80, some terrain changes)
Comments:
Spoiler
Genocide 12 Stone Cold Crazy :Intended! The floaters are just whatever. ;P
Genocide 14 Vortex Of Plans : Nah, not much better.
Genocide 17 Radience : The 1 blocker is optional, so everything is fine. :)
Genocide 20 Links 2, Links 2, Links 2 3 4! : 100% intended! :thumbsup:
Genocide 21 I am the End of Fortune! : I think that's another contender for the biggest backroute yet. The steel wall should block it.
Genocide 23 IRON JUGGERNAUT : Acceptable alternative. The level is a bit more leaniant in terms of solution acceptance.
Genocide 24 Delight And Angers : Another alternative. It's not exactly intended, but I call this close enough.
Genocide 25 Scorcher VI: Global Meltdown : 100% intened! :thumbsup:
Genocide 26 Laughs of Insanity : Well, this is also broken. An RR increase should block this.
Genocide 3 You Gotta Party Harty! : Could you give this another go ??? I have hopes that it is fixed now.
EDIT: I completely overlooked that contest update. :-[ Sorry! It is included now. :)
Sadly, this is the final bunch of replays for now as tomorrow is the last day of my furlough.
I wanted to try every level at least once but I ran out of time. :(
I'll be back in a few months hopefully. :-\
Btw, I came here with more new replays than usual and I also resolved Genocide3.
Spoiler
Genocide 3 You Gotta Party Harty! : I bet this is intended now!
Genocide 26 Laughs of Insanity : I have a basher left this time. I guess the leftover basher is for releasing the blocker which I released with fencer maybe?
Genocide 27 Planter's Punch : Nice variation of three builder wall!
Genocide 28 It's All About Pentiums! : I'm sure this is a big backroute. I guess the intended solution is much more difficult than this. At first, I assume the cloner is for either bashing two one way arrow walls with only one basher or building at the receiver to make platform for the athlete. But for now, I think this level needs some fix.
Genocide 29 The Next Evolution of Lem : What a huge well-mdae level! Similar concept with "Tomb of Ichot'olot" but I prefer this level!
Genocide 30 Trump This Tower! : I think my solution is mostly intended. I have a basher and a blocker left though.
Genocide 31 Sanctuary In Dying Light : This level is my top three favorite levels of the pack so far! :thumbsup: (with "Deviate" and "Where Secrets Sway") I have a glider left so it can be a backroute. Nonetheless, I really enjoyed this level!
Genocide 32 To new Shores of Sadness : I guess two big miners in my solution are intended but I had a bomber left. I'm not sure whether the bomber exist just for blowing up the blocker instead of nuking. Or maybe I just backrouted this level.
Genocide 33 Architect of your Despair : Solving this level was depends on whether I could find the "Magic Number"! Very interesting level!
Genocide 34 Salvation Code : It was a little bit easy than other levels.(but still very hard)
Genocide 35 Kiwi Knights's Keep : Nice looking level but I think there's a backroute for now. I had many leftover skills
Genocide 36 Earth Below Us,... Drigting Away : I had may leftover skills even though I wasted some platformers. I guess somewhere in my solution is not intended. Maybe bottom left bomber??
V 9.0 is out!Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 28 (added steel, removed decoration)
- 5 31 (the cloners are now pick up skills)
- 5 32 (added steel)
- 5 34 (-1 digger, -1 basher)
- 5 35 (the platformers are now pick ups, added a trap)
- 5 36 (added steel)
Comments:
Spoiler
Genocide 3 You Gotta Party Harty! : Finally! :thumbsup:
Genocide 26 Laughs of Insanity : Let's just say you did the challenge variant. the fencer release is a key trick here. The extra basher allows you to go to very bottom right with the crowd if your timing is slightly worse. Nothing major so everything is fine.
Genocide 28 It's All About Pentiums! : Argh, backroute. I suspect without a backroute that this may be a major roadblock though. ;)
Genocide 30 Trump This Tower! : Totally acceptable!
Genocide 31 Sanctuary In Dying Light : Parts are intended, but I think I need to relief the start of cloners. ;) And you are now the furthest player! :laugh:
Genocide 32 To new Shores of Sadness : the miners are correct, another part not so.
Genocide 34 Salvation Code : Well, time to remove 2 skills. ;P
Genocide 35 Kiwi Knights's Keep : Yeah this is a mess, my fix is a little shot in the dark seeing if it works, but well let's see.
Genocide 36 Earth Below Us,... Drigting Away : Yeah the bottom left part is the target of my fix. ;)
I also have a mate from Seoul who had to do military service. He needed to interrupt making his bachelor here in germany. Last year he came back though.
I wish you all the best for the further military service! :) I will await your return! ;)
V 9.1 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 39 (-1 stacker, +1 platformer)
- 5 14 (added steel + fire)
- 5 21 (8 bashers and 2 diggers are now pick ups)
- 5 31 (-10 lemming count, RR 99)
New levels:
- 6 15 "It's The Name Of The Fame"
- 6 16 "Xeno Menace"
V 9.2 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 39 (removed some steel)
- 5 28 (moved 2 platforms)
- 5 31 (added a steel block)
- 5 34 (removed some terrain)
- 5 35 (completeply remade the solution and removed pick ups for now)
- 5 36 fixed a visual error
V 9.3 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 4 39 (removed a platformer pick-up)
- 5 28 (added some steel)
- 5 31 (-1 glider, -2 cloner pick ups)
- 5 35 (added some fire)
- 5 40 (-3 blocker, some terrain changes)
V 9.4 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 31 (removed a steel block)
- 5 39 (added some steel)
- 5 40 (slight terrain changes, increased save requirement by 2)
- 5 41 (removed and added some steel, extended a OWW, -1 glider, -1 blocker, - 1 builder, +1 digger)
V 9.5 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 37 (added a terrain block)
- 5 39 (added some fire)
- 5 40 (added a 2 minute timer)
- 5 41 (added some terrainand steel)
V 9.6 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 39 (added some fire)
- 5 41 (erased some terrain)
V 9.7 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 5 41 (-1 basher)
Even after attempting to redownload the relevant styles, I get pieces missing errors in Pacifism 39 (latest version of United). From the preview it looks like pieces near the exit are the culprits.
Quote from: namida on February 28, 2020, 05:23:31 AM
Even after attempting to redownload the relevant styles, I get pieces missing errors in Pacifism 39 (latest version of United). From the preview it looks like pieces near the exit are the culprits.
I think there is something wrong with the styles download here. I redownloaded my styles from the source a few versions ago and I have no such issues and this is the standard L2 shadow style on top of that.
Near the exit are only very basic blocks nothing that I would suspect here.
I think I found the error though: The styles download from the page is indeed missing pieces: The OWWs!
I attached my version of the style and I've got 4 extra object files. This works 100% for me.
I don't know the reason the up-to-date style version is missing these now as they are nothing special. Maybe the OWWs are now being handled via a recoloring method but anyway this should properly be handled by the new style version so that these objects are automatically adjusted. :8():
EDIT:
The alias seems to be wrong:
$GADGET
FROM :oww_left
TO default:owa_left
$END
$GADGET
FROM :oww_right
TO default:owa_right
$END
The objects I got are called
OWW_left and
OWW_right.
I guess this is case sensitive.
After trying renaming it to OWW in the alias I got the same error though so this is not it and I begin to run out of ideas. :P
I request some help for a fixed version of the style that points these missing OWW pieces to the correct piece in the default style. As I don't know what else needs to be done.
I think I found the solution!
Both needs to happen:
1.) Inclusion of the missing objects.
2.) Renaming inside the alias file.
I attached a fixed L2_shadow version that has both of these changes the arrows now have the new borders as well. Test it out and see if it works for you.
I would propose immidiate inclusion to the standard styles download. :8():
Files with the original names shouldn't need to be present as well. That's the whole point of the alias system - to redirect for pieces that have been renamed / merged / etc.
This suggests to me that either (a) the alias is configured incorrectly, or (b) alias capability broke somehow, I'll investigate it this weekend and release a styles or player update as necessary.
V 9.8 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 3 13 (added terrain and steel)
- 1 39 (small visual error fixed - not related to the current tileset error)
The l2_shadow style in the standard library has been updated to address the error.
The level can be played normally after it has been updated, although the editor will still give an error upon loading the affected levels.
I will upload a pack update tomorrow that will fix that as well (it will just be a simple mass level cleanse). :)
A few more solutions.
Feedback
Neutrality 34 - After coming back to this one, it didn't take me long to solve it this time. Maybe I just needed a clear head. :P Nice level!
Neutrality 35 - Excellent level, one of my favorites so far!
Neutrality 36 - I like the idea of the solution, but found it a bit annoying to execute in practice.
Neutrality 37 - Same response as 36, but even more so.
Neutrality 38 - This one didn't take me nearly as long to solve as the previous ones (except 34), so maybe a bit easy for the position, but still a very nice level.
V 9.9 is out!
Levels cleansed.
V 10.0 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 3 13 (changed the position of the pick-up skills)
- 5 37 (added a trap)
- 5 41 (added some terrain)
V 10.1 is out!
Backroute fixes based on Armani's replays:
- 3 13 (removed some terrain)
- 5 37 (added and moved some traps, -1 glider)
- 5 41 (the recently added terrain is now steel)
The first person has solved every level of the pack with 100% intended or at least acceptable solutions!
Congratulations to Armani for this amazing achievement! :thumbsup:
The promised prize will be sent out soon. ;)
From what I could make out, the prize for the hardest level of the pack goes to 5 37 "Gate To The Inner Sanctum". Which is also the poster boy level for the "Genocide" rank in the first post.
Hope to soon see the next solver to achieve this! ;)
Hello,
Attached are my replays of levels 19, 23, and 36, and my best attempt at 41 of Neutrality.
Spoiler
Neutrality 19 - I was stuck on this level for a few days, but this solution is able to save all instead of losing 1 and doesn't even use the pit before the trap. However, to achieve this the blocker and miner have to be assigned very precisely. You can say that I kind of brute forced this level instead of what Namida did. I initially made use of the pit, but it never occurred to me to release the blocker and then reassign a blocker on the builder staircase later.
Neutrality 23 - While this uses all the tools, I was able to avoid the right side of the level completely. I initially thought about using the right side, but I thought fencing wouldn't work. Plus, I never bothered to check to see if it would work, but it does indeed work as Namida's video replay shows. This level did give me problems, but it didn't take me anywhere near as long as 19.
Neutrality 36 - Definitely a backroute! As a result, I had a disarmer leftover. Should be an easy fix, though. I did think about using two platformers on the water gap on the right side, but I never was able to get it to work so that one of them turns around. Instead, I kept using a platformer and builder, which will always turn the builder around, but a lemming going through the traps would always fall into the water before the gap was closed or even if no lemmings fell in, the other problem was the next water gap to the left of the entrance and finally some lemmings would turn around before a lemming got a chance to bomb through the wall. Due to the time limit, you can't afford to have any of them turn around before they can break through.
Neutrality 41 - This solution fails by 1 platformer! :evil: Even if I do have another platformer to seal the gap, I then am a walker short. Therein lies the problem: I'm always a platformer or a walker short. There must be a trick that I'm missing. I know you gave Armani a hint for this level, but I absolutely refuse to read it. I've beaten your Lemmings Reunion pack without consulting any playthroughs, and I would like to do the same here. This level has stumped me for almost 4 months, and I know I could skip this and play the other levels in the pack, but I personally love playing packs in order, which means I refuse to proceed with the pack until I beat this level. With this, no hints yet, but rather you can just say if, for example, the beginning part is wrong or something else if you think this will give away too much.
V 10.2 is out!Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:
- 2 19 (changed up the terrain at the start to not have 2 pixel steps anymore)
- 2 23 (the fencer is now a pick-up skill)
- 2 36 (removed some terrain)
- 2 41 (smoothen the left steel wall)
I smoothen the steel walls in the rank finisher to stop any ideas that would include those. Your solution itself is still quite far away. Very general thing about my rank finishers:
Spoiler
Rember what you learned/needed to use (or at least should have needed to use) in the rank so far. That would be my general advice. :)
Replays attached again for 2 19 and 2 23
EDIT - oops, forgot to attach 2 36.
Spoiler
2 19 - While you blocked it off at the spot I mined out the blocker on the ground, my solution still works, just at a different spot. Took me 5 seconds to confirm that I can still use the same replay solution I sent you. You can try to smooth out this location too, or maybe you can use the same fix you applied to 2 23 by making both of the blockers pick-up skills? Or maybe add steel but the level probably won't look as nice this way.
2 23 - This should be intended now. Great level.
2 36 - Same as 2 23. Now I don't have a disarmer left over.
2 41 - I haven't looked at the new version of 2 41 yet, but I'll get to it soon. So it turns out I wasted all that unnecessary time trying something that was incorrect this entire time. Looks like I never eliminated the hole in the wall being required in the solution as being incorrect. All rightie, let's see if this will steer me in the right direction towards a workable solution.
V 10.3 is out!
Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:
- 2 19 (flattened the starting area's terrain completely)
The other 2 levels are indeed intended now! :thumbsup:
Resolved 2 19.
And that's intended! :thumbsup:
And, 2 41 finally solved!
Spoiler
2 41 - Wow, what an excellent rank finisher level that managed to stump me for 4 months! I nearly got teary-eyed upon finally solving this monster of a level on my very own when I was nearly tempted to read the hint you gave to Armani or view his replay. So it turns out that the green wall at the beginning wasn't just decoration and it's definitely needed for the solution. I can't believe this never ever occurred to me. No wonder I was stumped for so long. :forehead:
I finally came back and seriously attempted this level today and after about an hour of thinking through this and trying various stuff, I managed to solve it. It turns out that I needed to really think outside the box, and your subtle hint that my solution replay I sent you was "still so far" was somewhat helpful but ultimately helped me find the solution on my own. The problem was that I kept thinking that a stacker needs to be used to get the lemmings out of the holding pit on top. It never occurred to me that I could contain the lemmings at the top at the bottom with the stacker. Once I tried that, I nearly had an aha moment and thought that it could potentially be used to get to the eventual solution, as I now have all those walkers and platformers that I otherwise kept using up in my old replay that turned out to not be a working solution at all. However, the next big problem I ran into was getting the top entrance in the holding pit and the lemmings at the bottom out. I kept thinking it was impossible because since platformers don't gain height they're essentially trapped. So, it was back to using a stacker to get them out for about another 10-15 minutes, when I eventually came back and thought about what I did have left over after mining the bottom crowd out with the new approach: a basher, a walker, and two platformers. It then occurred to me that I could indeed gain some height from these leftover skills by bashing the green wall to the left of the top entrances and then cancelling midstroke. I tried this with a quick level reset and saw that they can get out with two platformers, so then one more reset and I quickly proceeded with the rest of the solution first and then got very excited when I got to the bashing part and saw that indeed it works with the skills I had leftover. Then the rest is history. Yay me! :)
First two ranks all solved. Onward to the Tension levels!
100% intended solution! :thumbsup:
Great job! :)
Hello,
Making great progress on the Tension levels. A lot of great levels in there. However, I appear to have hit a roadblock with 3 17, either because I might be missing something obvious or I'm finding it impossible with the given skillset. The level gives 3 climbers, 2 stackers, 2 stoners, 1 bomber, 1 platformer, 1 basher, and 2 miners. Is this correct? No hints yet, I just want to know if the level is solvable with the given skillset.
Spoiler
Tension 1 - Great level to begin the rank that requires some thinking to get up and then out in each section with the given skills.
Tension 2 - Pretty easy, but it's just the second level of the rank.
Tension 3 - Looks daunting with all the pick up skills but is actually easy.
Tension 5 - First level in the rank where I was stuck thinking for a while, especially with how to release the crowd at the end.
Tension 7 - This took me a while to figure out as well, maybe close to an hour. Is there a way to make the timing a little easier at the end?
Tension 8 - Easiest level by far.
Tension 9 - Looks extremely daunting at first glance but in actuality is quite easy. I love the symmetry. My only suggestion would be to reduce the lemming count, especially given how there's a long time waiting for all lemmings to get through the teleporters. I'm not sure if it was the number of lemmings or the graphic set itself, but even with fast forward on it was quite sluggish.
Tension 10 - Another real stumper but an excellent level that definitely required thinking outside the box. Is the throwback in the title referring to the Sports Bar level from Reunion?
Tension 11 - Excellent level with a well-hidden solution
Tension 12 - Excellent level that happened to stump me but only because my initial thought was to build twice from the steel block. Then I tried bashing through the spike on the floor and allowed the lead lemming to walk to the left side and, to my surprise, that they can indeed gain height from the structure.
Tension 13 - Excellent level and puzzle, especially with how to bash the crowd out at the end.
Tension 14 - Another great level with an excellent puzzle. I initially bombed my way down but this turned out to be a red herring since I would always be a lemming short due to the traps in front of the exit.
Tension 15 - It took a while to work this out, but this one was very satisfying to solve. An excellent puzzle with a lot of false paths that look like they could work but don't. Love the title too!
V 10.4 is out!Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:
- 3 02 (added some steel)
- 3 09 (added some terrain)
Comments on kaywhyn solutions:
Spoiler
Tension 7: There are quite a few possible variations on how to achieve the end situation. Yours is more precise in timing. It's very very difficult to block one variation while still allowing the others.
Tension 8: That's surprising. Until more it was considered more among the harder ones.
Tension 9: That's why you catched a backroute. ;) The teleporters are not there to teleport all 100+ lemmings.
Tension 10: Exactly.
I can assure you that 3 17 is 100% possible. I just checked the replay again.
2 people found it quite hard until now, while 1 person said it was pretty easy.
Resolved 3 2.
Spoiler
Tension 2 - Now the level is a more decent challenge, but still an excellent level.
Comments:
Spoiler
Tension 8 - Except for containing the crowd at the start with a digger while letting two worker lemmings get past and bashing at the exact moment the pit is no longer scalable so that it gets stopped by the OWW but still leaving a step for the crowd to get out later, there's nothing difficult about this level. After that, just a miner to separate the workers and the rest of the level kind of plays itself out where due to the level itself the timing is just perfect for both lemmings to go through the trap at the same time so only one gets killed. Goes to show you that opinions will always differ. In the same way I find some levels easy but others found hard, it's also true for vice versa, where some levels I surprisingly struggled with but others found easy.
Tension 9 - Sorry, I can still use the exact same replay. I do see the change that was added, but that has not prevented me from doing the exact same thing.
Quote from: IchoTolot on April 11, 2020, 09:45:04 AM
I can assure you that 3 17 is 100% possible. I just checked the replay again.
2 people found it quite hard until now, while 1 person said it was pretty easy.
Thanks for confirming. In that case, I haven't found the solution yet then. I'll keep trying.
V 10.5 is out!
Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:
- 3 09 (reverted the last fix, added some steel and moved 2 teleporters)
Now it should be fixed. ;)
3 02 is intended now!
Resolved 3 9. This seems intended now. Still slow even when I had fast forward on while doing the execution (seems like it's either a graphic set limitation or maybe just the fact the level is huge), but at least the solving time is cut drastically.
V 10.6 is out!
Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:
- 3 09 (added some steel)
I was so focussed on the teleporter that I completely missed another thing that's wrong and allowed you to waste skills elsewhere. This should fix it though.
If you have the high quality minimap activated you could deactivate it to improve performance. But yes, the level's size is a big reson for it.
Resolved 3 9 again. This should be it.
Quote from: IchoTolot on April 11, 2020, 09:26:08 PM
If you have the high quality minimap activated you could deactivate it to improve performance.
Turning it off did the trick! I'll just live with it on for the level since I prefer the high quality minimap (looks much better imo). Besides, I could simply use the 10-second skip in place of fast forward for the most part.
Intended! :thumbsup:
V 10.7 is out!
Warning! This version is reuired if you play on NeoLemmix version 12.9.0 or higher! Otherwise you will encounter impossible levels!
Fixed levels through small terrain and object changes:
- 1 31
- 4 05
- 4 06
- 4 39
- 5 08
- 5 41
- 6 15
Finally back to play this pack some more, especially since I've finally managed to get myself unstuck on Tension 17 after a little over a month. I was going to wait until I had finished the rank to send replays, but I'll send them now since I'm now currently stumped on Tension 34 -
Forgotten Refinery. I think I know the idea of what needs to be done in the level, but I'll try again later on today since it's already pretty late here. A lot of really nice levels in this bunch! However, I do believe there are some backroutes. In particular, Tension 25 -
Step Up! (or Don't) and Tension 27 -
Step it DownSpoiler
I didn't even have to collect the miner pick up at all in Tension 25, which I'm sure you intend, while in Tension 27 I have some climbers and swimmers left over. I'm surprised my solution works with where I assigned the digger to free the crowd, but it's a very precise assignment.
Some remarks:
Spoiler
Tension 17 - And Another Head Hangs Ok, this level managed to stump me for a little over a month, but it turns out that it's not a very hard level at all, just a level with a really well-hidden solution due to the steel. For some reason, I thought a second miner wouldn't work after a somewhat precise first miner assignment and kept thinking that I need to bomb before using a second miner to get them the crowd out. This turns out to be impossible, as it's not possible to turn two climbers back to accomplish this. Also, I kept bombing the first miner to make a hole for another lemming to mine the crowd, but this isn't feasible either, as there's no way to send one of the remaining two climbers back to do so. Then finally in one attempt where I was trying things I got a climber to turn around to try a second miner assignment. Turns out that the second miner has extreme precision assignment and that it is indeed possible to assign a second miner in the first miner tunnel despite the first one being stopped due to the steel but still made possible because of how the first miner was able to remove some terrain on the other side of the steel. Armed with this idea, the solution for the level was there, and I already knew how to turn a climber around by getting one of them stuck by two stacks and freeing the stuck climber with a basher requires good timing and precision. The rest was smooth sailing from there.
Tension 18 - Spacestation GE 00 Nice level! I really loved the idea of delaying the lemmings here! It still took several tries to try some ideas and get the timing right, but this level took me nowhere near as long as the previous one, probably about 20-25 mins max.
Tension 19 - Vertigo Another nice level! It didn't take me too long to see that a builder must be used to get a part of it past a thin wall for the floater to bridge the gaps. The first basher placement is really precise though, and I guess the digger and miner as well.
Tension 20 - Totally Stoned This was a really good level that managed to stump me for a while with the false water gaps path. In particular, the stoner's use in the level isn't obvious at all, but once I figured out that it can serve the double purpose of breaking the fall of the second climber both above and below after digging through it, the rest of the level was easy. I did try the wrong idea of first stoning, then digging, then building. The climber will survive the fall for a while, though, where the problem is there's no path for the crowd this way.
Tension 21 - Dragon Slayer Great level here! The stacker is very precise, as there's only one location that works to break the crowd's fall AND so the climber doesn't get stuck.
Tension 22 - Mindshell Indeed, this managed to stump me good until I saw that the basher needs to be canceled midstroke and build to plug up the tunnel so that the crowd is trapped, so this is pretty much a variation of the builder trick in Vertigo. Like that level, the basher placement is a bit precise to accomplish this, and the timing is also a bit tricky, as there's another lemming not too far away from the interrupted basher.
Tension 23 - Dare to Share Really easy level compared to the others around this, as it's really obvious where the skills need to go.
Tension 24 - Construct Additional Pylons Nice Starcraft reference! The protoss is also my favorite race to play. At first glance, this level seems to be very open-ended with the abundance of platformers and builders, but don't be fooled, as they all need to be used very carefully, and so you can't waste any of them. Quite honestly, though, I wasn't too big of a fan of this level due to a lot of building and how it's difficult to tell whether you're wasting any platformers or builders unnecessarily.
Tension 28 - Backyard Garden What? I didn't even know it was possible for a bomber to still exit. Truth be told, I don't like this trick, as it's kind of not expected behavior of a bomber in the ohno animation. No wonder I was really stumped on this level, as it should had been very clear from the start that the bombers are red herrings. Even if you just gave one bomber, I still would had been stumped for a while, but then again the solution might be way more obvious this way, especially if one already knows it's possible for a bomber in the ohno animation that lands in front of the exit can still exit. Surprising, I know, considering that this is possibly the shortest level in the pack due to the 55 second time limit and how there aren't even that many possibilities to try. The timer's definitely justified, as then the other solution of digging with the preplaced lemming and letting him finish completely would work.
Tension 29 - Tomb of Ichot'olot Really nice puzzle! I really loved seeing the solution in action. I do have a stacker leftover, though. I'm not a fan of levels that give a lot of stackers, as it's always very difficult to know whether they need to be used to hold back lemmings or to ascend the level in short bursts. Here, it's not too bad, as it's really obvious where the stackers need to be assigned and you only need to do it once at most at each location.
Tension 30 - Just Do It Up! I wasn't a fan of this level either due to crucial bomber placements. I do have diggers leftover, but I'm guessing that it's fine.
Tension 31 - Locked In Really nice puzzle too!
Tension 32 - Awakening of Aggressions Yet another great level that almost uses the standard two blockers to hold back the crowd! However, here you need to send two worker lemmings ahead. Looks like we got that bomber releasing two blockers trick from Neutrality 38 here again. The miner and builder to get up the tunnel are a bit precise, though.
Tension 33 - Eyes in the Dark Third awesome puzzle in a row! :thumbsup: The stoner miner trick is new to me here, but it didn't take too long to see that it needs to be used in this level, as the builders are obvious where they need to go.
V 10.8 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 3 25 (a basher is now a pick-up skill)
- 3 27 (added some steel)
The rest was either intended or acceptable alternative solutions. :)
Forgotten Refinery is definitly a roadblock, because it needs a certain trick you need to discover here. Be encouraged though that you are not the only one being blocked by it (Josh and I might remember even Armani being hold back here.). ;)
I myself learned that trick in a level Wafflem made back in the day where he enforced it in one of his last rank levels. Took me a couple of tries there as well.
V 10.9 is out!
Fixed backroutes:
- 1 33 (slight terrain changes)
You all can thank my chronic over-complication for that one. :P
Haha, great job, Tomato Watcher. Good luck with the remaining 7 levels of the rank. I do remember some hard ones to come, in particular Pacifism 36, 37 (for me it wasn't a problem, but I know others found it hard), and 41, the rank finisher, so these might take you a while. However, I know you can do it, seeing how you managed to get to the point you're at now and how you beat some difficult ones along the way after some struggling. ;)
Funny you say that; I'm stuck on Pacifism 36 as we speak!
Haha, I knew it. I just watched your attempt at it. The reason I brought up these 3 levels was because I remember them being difficult, and they are also seen as difficult levels by most. It's almost been a year since I've beaten all of the Pacifism rank, but these 3 are the ones I remember standing out as being difficult levels. However, as I previously mentioned in my last reply, 37 didn't give me as much problems, but others had trouble with it and it's generally seen as a difficult level. In particular, I too was stumped by Pacificism 36 for a time, and this level was the very first one in the rank that gave me problems and one where I was stuck for more than 10 minutes. So, this means you're not alone here being stuck on this level. It's a hard level for most, and for good reason: Multiple hatches, tall level, and a very limited skillsket. Not to mention that it's at the very end of the rank, so these last few are expected to be hard. Of course, level difficulty is subjective. Just because I was stuck on this level doesn't automatically mean that you will be, but it seems I was accurate in my analysis here, as you are indeed stumped on the level for the time being. At the same time, I thought these 3 were great levels despite the difficulty, especially the rank finisher. Keep at it, though, and you'll get through it eventually.
Well, I just recorded another video and got through both 36 and 37!
36 was super satisfying to solve.
Spoiler
I really had to challenge my assumptions about where the constructive and destructive skills were to be used.
37 was actually fairly easy for me, a bit like you said.
Spoiler
I made one bad assumption at the beginning with the builders, but that only took me about 5 minutes to figure out. The rest was self-explanatory.
Great job with both! Good luck with 41 when you get there. Like 36, it's quite satisfying to solve.
And, Tension 34 solved!
Spoiler
Wow, it's a really great level! Before discovering the trick, I was completely stumped and stuck and hence it was a really hard level, but once discovered it's an extremely easy level. Looks like that little detour I took to solve Wafflem's entire pack was indeed worthwhile, especially since it only took me 5-6 days to beat his pack. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if I would had been able to come up with the trick on my own without your super vague but ultimately extremely useful hint referring to a level in the final rank of his pack. The biggest difference was that it only took me about 10 minutes to come up with the solution for Wafflem's level, so this probably means I might had eventually given enough time. For your level, after I had beaten Wafflem's pack last night, I thought to myself, I'm not sure if it was helpful to have played Wafflem's pack, because I didn't see any fancy trick in any of his last rank levels. Nope, I was wrong. I had an Aha moment about an hour ago when I realized, wait, that one level I played where I trapped the crowd by a stack resulting in them turning after just walking 1 frame in either direction. Once I made that connection, I quickly put it to the test and solved your level in a minute. Therefore, the main challenge of the level is how to contain the crowd. Once done with the trick, then it's a very easy level.
So, stuck on this level for 3 weeks after first having reached it, but thank you for a hint that didn't give any of the solution away. The only thing I feel bad about is having to ask for a hint, but then again this is the first level in the Tension rank where I asked for one, so maybe I shouldn't feel bad. Not to mention it's only the 2nd level in the entire pack so far that I have had to.
Also, resolved both Tension 25 and Tension 27
Spoiler
Sorry, backroute again for Tension 25. As a matter of fact, I can use the exact same solution as last time, except this time I need to use a climber. The climber should not had been able to climb through that. Thus, I didn't need to use the miner... again. Good luck blocking this, I guess. As for Tension 27, this seems intended now.
Onward! :)
Tension finally finished! Here are the rest of the replays for the rank, starting with 35 (see reply #200 for Tension 34, as well as Tension 25 and 27 resolved)
Spoiler
Tension 35 - Oh, It's Irresistible Easy level, with the only tricky thing being the timing to release the blocker so that he can turn the crowd around on the middle platform.
Tension 36 - Monachopsis This one managed to stump me for about 20-25 minutes before I remembered about lemmings landing inside the stoner's terrain from your Neolemmix Tutorial pack to turn around. This can be a bit tricky, especially making sure only one turns around while the rest take a detour to allow the builder time to bridge both gaps at the end.
Tension 37 - This Dome is Our Home Good level that managed to give me some trouble, but really the only real problem I had was making lemmings survive the bottom fall. That took me a while to figure out after optimizing the bridges at the top.
Tension 38 - The Machine Another level that managed to stump me for about a day, but I really like the solution in the end, which involves making sure the glider doesn't come back up once he falls to the bottom and delaying him long enough with platformers so that the non-glider can hit the remaining buttons before the glider goes past the exit and missing the chance to exit due to it not being unlocked yet.
Tension 39 - Double Vortex - A very rare instance of a level late in the rank that has excessive skills. It's also a really huge level that looks extremely difficult and daunting, but it's not that hard of a level at all. It's really obvious where most of the skills need to go, for example. I really like how the two groups need to collect pick-ups to allow the other to proceed further in the level. I did have to back a few times and optimize my builders because I kept running out. Good use of the trick of cloning a miner 3 times total, 2 of which use the builder for the miner to continue, and also two cases of cancelling a miner midstroke to allow the lemmings to get higher. This level ended up taking me a little over 20 minutes, so perhaps there should be a time limit here to prevent people from taking their time just like you did with the rank finisher. This would make 3 levels in a row with a timer.
Tension 40 - Deviate! By far my favorite level of the rank! I absolutely loved seeing the solution in action and having the two specialists (swimmer and disarmer) beat the separate groups before they can drown/killed by the traps. Somewhat easy for a penultimate level of the rank.
Tension 41 - The Igniting Spark Seems a lot easier than the previous two rank finishers. This one almost took me a day to figure out, the same as the Pacifism rank finisher, but the solution seems much easier to figure out here than Pacifism 41. There's that trick of turning a lemming around inside the stoner's terrain again, which I figured out fairly quickly to allow a worker lemming enough time to platform the two gaps before the crowd arrives. The most difficult part was the top where it wasn't clear that two stoners would be sufficient to get up the steel platform. Indeed, it's easy to figure out that a bomber must be used because lemmings cannot get up on a stoner on even ground. It turns out that all 3 skills have to be very precise: The bomber needs to be assigned as it touches the steel wall, then there's only one position that will work for the first stoner AND it must be assigned facing to the left, and finally the second stoner needs to be assigned the instant it falls off the first stoner in order for the crowd to still be able to make it over the steel platform. Also, the first stoner to hold back the crowd on the bottom has only one spot that will work, as well as the basher. That makes 5 very precise assignments in total, but it's ok as it is the rank finisher and so is expected to be difficult. Finally, the 12 minute time limit may seem very generous, but it is surprisingly very tight. I only had 3 seconds left in the end. So while the level isn't very difficult compared to the previous two rank finishers, in addition to those very precise assignments, the timer definitely adds to the challenge.
Overall, the Tension rank felt somewhat easier than the Neutrality rank, even though there were 2 levels that managed to stump me for a really long time, Tension 17 and Tension 34 (interesting how the two levels that stumped me are both multiples of 17). The former is difficult only because the solution is very well-hidden due to the steel, while the latter is difficult only if you don't know the "certain trick" you mentioned, but if you do then it's an extremely easy level. I certainly didn't know about the trick until I played that level from Wafflem's pack, so I felt that the detour I took to beat his pack seemed well worth it, as it allowed me to finally get past Tension 34. At the same time, I might had been able to figure it out even without playing Wafflem's level had I maybe spent more time on your level, but that's not certain. In any case, it's a trick I'm now aware of.
Onward to the War rank!
Thanks for all the feedback and replays and great job on solving the rank :thumbsup:
I will look through everything once I am back from my little vacation. :)
I think a big reason why rank 3 felt a bit easier than rank 2 is the ammount of training and experience you got in between. The pack gets a lot easier once you saw the tricks before and used them a couple of times. Also, just a lot more lemmings "routine" can go a long way.
Been really hard at work playing your pack the last few days while you were away on vacation. Halfway through the War rank already! Here are War 1-20 replays. Lots of great levels in this bunch! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
War 1 - I Demand a Builder Good level to start off the rank. I have your Neolemmix Tutorial Pack to thank for this as well, where this level twice uses the trick of blocking with the basher mid-stroke and then immediately digging with another close-by lemming.
War 2 - Well of Eternity Much easier than the corresponding Tension 2 level. This is probably a backroute, though, as I do have some skills leftover.
War 3 - Stairs of Sacrifice Pretty good level where I had to think for a while. The solution was obvious, just the execution was a bit fiddly. I do have a blocker leftover, though.
War 4 - Don't Feed the Clams Easy and excellent puzzle!
War 5 - Up the Fly Tower Yet another great puzzle where I had to think about how to make a big enough gap between the lemmings so as to give the lead lemming enough time to finish the gaps before the crowd arrived. It was fun seeing all those gliders interacting with the updrafts on the screen. It is near impossible to see the glider pickup label for the entrance, though, as it blends in really well. Was this intentional? Also, why was the level impossible before? It has something to do with how gliders not gliding early enough?
War 6 - May the Skills Be With You Well, the skills weren't with me for a few days, as this is a really good puzzle that was a roadblock for me for a few days. As a result, this was probably the hardest level in the rank up to this point. In a way, I kept on thinking that it was unbelievable that I was already stumped this early in the rank. I kept running into the problem of having no skill available to turn the lemming that digs the gliders out around. Once I realized which pickup skills were going to help in the solution while ignoring all those decoys, the solution came to me easily. Also, the other problem spot was how I kept unnecessarily wasting two walkers to turn the two climbers around to avoid the trap. That's because I kept using the basher in the wrong spot, where it should be used for the wall before the laser trap. Same thing: Why was this level impossible before? I'm thinking the place at the top and the right side in the middle were the problem spots for gliders.
War 7 - Temple of Ichot'tolot Excellent 1 of everything puzzle! Loved the trick of bombing the up OWW to stop the digger. Didn't take me long to figure that out, and once done the rest is very easy.
War 8 - Mount Lemmerest I did it, I managed to scale the mountain. I have to disagree with Armani here, this was a really good and somewhat challenging puzzle. I didn't like how the fast forward didn't speed things up at all due to how much there is in the level, but this is a minor point, as most of the time I could use the 10 second skip instead.
War 9 - DYNAmic Circuit Nice challenging puzzle where I had to think, especially since there are no constructive skills here! I already knew the trick of blocking in front of the locked exit from Wafflem's pack, so made the level a little easier, but that's just one part of the puzzle. I do have some skills leftover though, so it might be a backroute?
War 10 - Beam Me Up Lemmy! Yet another level where I have your Neolemmix Tutorial Pack to thank for teaching me that skills continue after going through a teleporter :thumbsup: I initially didn't make the connection for about 10-15 minutes, but once I remember this then the level was easy.
War 11 - Hellraisers My favorite level of the rank thus far. I love how bashers are used to release another worker lemming from the entrance and to delay the crowd here to give the lead lemming enough time to forge the path.
War 12 - The Climbing of the Zugspitze Another great puzzle involving figuring out how to delay the crowd to give the worker lemming time to forge the path. The first miner is very precise, as there's only one position that will work.
War 13 - Climbers of the Swamp This is also a favorite level of mine. This level stumped me for about a good half hour or so, but I really love the solution, which involves blocking and still being able to turn lemmings around despite there being a small gap due to how a blocker's field works.
War 14 - There's Something in the Water Too easy and also another favorite of mine.
War 15 - Framed with the Best Skills Good, somewhat challenging puzzle. There's probably better ways of doing the level than how I did it, though.
War 16 - Tomb Raiders Really great and easy level with an easy solution. The only tricky part is positioning the stoners and builder so that a miner goes through all of it.
War 17 - Shatterhail The hardest level so far after War 6, but only because the beginning part mining and two diggers is very precise. Luckily, due to how there's only 3 skills, it's really obvious where the skills go, just the execution is very fiddly.
War 18 - United We Stand Excellent puzzle! The trick of mining a stack in progress so that the lemmings can get up is done twice in the level and shows up again after the last time the trick is used in the Neutrality rank.
War 19 - Kraft Und Licht Challenging but excellent puzzle nevertheless. It's really obvious where the platformer and builder go, just figuring out how to do that is the main challenge. Since I don't know German, what does the title mean?
War 20 - Harkonnen Force I thought this would be another roadblock, but it turns out that I had the right ideas, just wasn't executing it correctly. I did come up with the idea of two miners cancelling both of each other out, but I tried several times and I would either have one cancel and the other continue or both continue. Since that kept failing, I was beginning to wonder if two miners cancelling each other is possible in Neolemmix. To check this, I quickly tried it on Nightmare on Lem Street, and indeed it does work. It's just very tricky to set up, as the positions of both miners have to be very precise and also timing the other miner correctly. Thank goodness for framestepping to determine when to start the other miner. Would be a nightmare to pull off in Superlemmini for sure! The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the trick of two miners cancelling each other out is intended, but it must be since it uses all the skills and seems to be the only way to solve the level. Also, a miner cancelling the other miner is used twice here.
Quote
I think a big reason why rank 3 felt a bit easier than rank 2 is the ammount of training and experience you got in between.
Good point! Didn't think about that. Welcome back, btw. :)
V 11.0 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 3 25 (added some terrain and pick-ups) I think I finally found a way to truly force the intended solution here.
- 3 39 (+1 save req) Did not remember why I gave an extra loss here.
- 4 02 (Added a OWW)
- 4 03 (Added OWWs and steel)
- 4 11 (Added steel) Just a minor backroute here though.
Comments:
Tension 41 - The Igniting Spark the history of the looong timer:
Spoiler
The timer here is an odd one. It basically prevents some solutions where you wait around like 20+ mins for the right timing. I even gave a few extra minutes, but well your solution is a slight backroute that can't 100% be fixed without major overhauls and it's VERY slow in its execution so that you managed to even go through the extra time. I decided that it is not worth it to fix such a minor backroute back then and gave 2 minutes extra on top of my solution to prevent any of those waiting around solutions. --> The fastest waiting around solution used like 2:30min more.
War 9 - DYNAmic Circuit
Spoiler
Only a very minor backroute that I accept as an alternative
War 20 - Harkonnen Force
Spoiler
"I did come up with the idea of two miners cancelling both of each other out" - Nowhere in this level is this precise trick needed. ;P It has quite a few solution variations and you delivered another one.
War 19 - Kraft Und Licht: It means "power and light".
All levels that were not possible were due to the NL glider update. There where quite a few levels where gliders did not reach their destination anymore due to them opening up their glider slightly later.
It amazes me how much the introduction pack already helps the player going through hard levels! Through all the intances I've read, here in this topic ALONE, contributing the knowledge of certain tricks and behaviors to the intro pack, I see that this is indeed the thing NL needed the most. It's not the new features, it's simply this - an easy way to get into the deeper mechanics of Lemmings (that is actually maintained).
It's still not done, but it will get there.
And, War completed! Attached are the rest of the War replays from 21 to 41, and also War 2, 3, and 11, as well as Tension 25, resolved. In contrast to the first half, which I kind of breezed through with little difficulty, the second half of War slowed my progress considerably, as there were some major roadblocks. In particular, War 26 -
I, Lemming and War 36 -
Rise Over Run were the stumping points for me, the former for an entire day because I was stupid, the latter for about a day and a half because I kept overcomplicating the solution in my mind and ran into skill shortages, the bashers and platformers in particular. I thought War 39 -
Hysteria would also be another roadblock, but I surprisingly solved it in about 1.5 - 2 hours.
Regarding resolved levels:
Spoiler
Tension 25 - Step Up! (Or Don't) Yes, I believe you finally have forced the intended solution, as I now use the miner. Well done! :thumbsup:
War 2 - Well of Eternity The small addition of the OWW has raised the difficulty of the level significantly! Still, excellent, decent challenge! :thumbsup: This is definitely intended now, as all skills are used and I used the so-called "well of eternity." Since War 14 uses a similar trick of bombing a swimmer and is much easier, I'm wondering if these two levels should swap?
War 3 - Stairs of Sacrifice Unless this is an acceptable solution, I have way more skills leftover than I did before the changes! I would still leave the floaters in, as there can still be a chance that the lemmings will kasplat on the platformer bridge.
War 11 - Hellraisers I don't think this is a problem, as it's the same solution, just a platformer at the top instead, I think?
Now for the second half of the War rank
Spoiler
War 21 - Center of Attention Challenging but really satisfying to figure out. I have a platformer leftover.
War 22 - Under The Eyes of Horus Nice use of the stacker to trap some lemmings to release the blocker and to make a basher continue through! :thumbsup: Took some time to figure that out. I have a blocker leftover.
War 23 - Warth of the Lem King Very satisfying puzzle to solve! Took some time to figure this one out too.
War 24 - Temperance and Vengeance By far the hardest part was the beginning. Also, Neolemmix Tutorial Pack comes to the rescue once again, as that's how I learned the stacker/stoner tricks there. This seems like a major backroute, considering I have a glider and stoner leftover. Also, I simply cloned a lemming at the top to make up for the stacker I lost.
War 25 - Flesh, Circuit, and Bone It's not a hard level, just very fiddly to execute. This is very similar to another level from another pack I have played previously. I don't remember which pack it is, but it was a marble level that was exactly this, only a stacker is used instead of a builder to turn the platformer underneath around.
War 26 - I, Lemming I was stupid on this one, because it never occurred to me to make a builder step on the top platform where the top entrance comes in, when I quickly figured out to make a building step in the platform beneath it. I was so confused why the top entrance couldn't land on the bottom entrance's building step. Turns out that the glider that lands on the builder step to dig takes away that step up so that only some of the lemmings will land on the bottom builder step. Then that led to a lot of trouble until I finally figured out to make a building step at the top to allow all the top entrance to land on the bottom step.
This level also has the trick from Tension 28 return, of bombing a digger so that it becomes an ohnoer who can still exit when it lands in front of the exit.
War 27 - Abort the Experiment Nice trick of cancelling builders with a basher so that the next time it's assigned one it won't turn around! Much easier than the levels around it.
War 28 - Complex Complex Nice level! I have a bomber leftover.
War 29 - On the Sunny Side of Life Challenging but still a great level! I don't know if there's a better way to make it so that the disarmer clearly makes it to the trap in the floating island before the crowd. It really seems like it's up to chance.
War 30 - Journey to the Coast Nice challenging puzzle involving a digger pit. I have a glider leftover.
War 31 - Tower of Darkness This one was pretty easy. I love the trick of using stackers next to each other to help a miner continue.
War 32 - Eternally Revolving This one managed to stump me for a time. The most difficult part was containing the crowd at the beginning, as well as how to get a climber to go over the top. I kept thinking a stoner was used for this purpose, as this saves the most constructive skills because just 1 platformer is sufficient, but then this creates the problem of releasing the blocker later. Once I realized the stoner can be used to stop the lemmings from going to the right, then the level was easy.
War 33 - The Spirit of Competition There may be a lot of builders, but all of them are used in the solution, so they cannot be wasted. The setup is almost automatic, but I still had to rewind several times to get it correct to allow the miner to go through all of it.
War 34 - Offworld Nice puzzle that also managed to stump me for a time, in particular how to contain the crowd and release the blocker later. Turns out a platformer has to continue from the other side. Nice! Also nice use of building to the left and the miner is still able to go through both platforms.
War 35 - Rising Like an Endless Crescendo Nice puzzle! The most difficult part was the beginning, separating two worker lemmings and delaying the crowd long enough for them to finish the platforms on time. I don't know if the long waiting game is intended, though.
War 36 - Rise Over Run Very hard level that stumped me for 1.5 days! Probably the hardest of the rank. I kept fighting between two paths to take, the left one, and the one in the middle with all the water. The latter almost works but is fatal by 1 pixel. For this route, I kept trying to see if it was possible to land on the mushroom which would allow the lemmings to survive. Turns out that's impossible, so then I tried to make the left route work. I kept overcomplicating the solution in my mind, and I mentioned before I kept running into platformer and basher shortages. I kept thinking that I need to use a blocker to turn the lemmings around on the lowest platform, but I correctly kept thinking it's impossible to, because the two blockers are easy to figure out in the two middle platforms. Turns out the hardest part to figure out is to get a basher to the left and platform to reach the next lower platform before the crowd arrives, as well as to platform to the left after the water. This level nevertheless was very satisfying to beat!
War 37 - An Artist's Life Nice level that is much easier than the previous one. The only hard part is knowing when to up the release rate so that only one lemming gets over the top.
War 38 - Imperial Basin Another nice level! Nice reference to the level Save Me from the original Lemmings when building to the top and blocking at the end of the staircase going to the right. I have a floater leftover.
War 39 - Hysteria As I mentioned before, I thought this level would be a major roadblock, but I surprisingly solved it in 1.5 - 2 hours. Can probably the hardest or the 2nd hardest level of the rank. By far the hardest part is getting up the left side of the level. Given that the major constructive skill given are platformers, this makes it a huge challenge in trying to get up since the skill doesn't add height! Also, there may be a lot of bashers, but all of them are used! Two were used to cancel platforming. The beginning also took some thinking through, as the stoner as the only possibility to get the crowd down is almost automatic due to how it uses less skills and allows the use of two stackers elsewhere, but there's also the possibility of using two stackers, one to block the lemmings going off the side of the level and another to get them down safely. The other challenge is figuring out that a stacker or a stoner is not used to stop lemmings from dying to the dragon trap at the very end and hence why there's so many platformers.
War 40 - Floral Fury Ah, another timed level just like the corresponding Tension 40. Not a bad thing, as I myself love time limits. Why 3:33, though? This one seems a lot easier than Tension 40, probably because of how the level is only a screen wide and how the skill placements are very obvious. As a matter of fact, I solved this by determining where the builders have to go first. Also, I'm surprised I got the timing of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th lemmings accurately on my first try! Although, the one digging down the pillar in the middle is almost just slightly too early. In contrast, I had to adjust the first and second climbers a few times, as I kept releasing a second climber a bit too early.
War 41 - Loss of Lemmanity Another nice rank finisher! :thumbsup: Definitely harder than the previous 3 rank finishers! Although, this level didn't take me anywhere near as long as Tension 41 (of all rank finishers, Neutrality 41 took me the longest). In particular, the most difficult part is the very beginning. Once again, the tricks of blocking right in front of the teleporter and blocking in midair to turn lemmings around return, just like you say with previous tricks coming back in your rank finishers. The biggest red herring is falling down the left side, but even then it's easy to figure out that it's not used since it's easy to figure out where the bashers go, two of which are used to free blockers, leaving only a walker to release the remaining blocker. It took me some time to work out the timing in the middle to ensure all the crowd gets up to the top and the lemming to release the blocker is the glider/climber athlete. There's probably better ways of achieving this than the way I did it, though.
Quote
- 3 32 (+1 save req) Did not remember why I gave an extra loss here.
Ah yes, I meant to mention this, but I forgot. Also, it's not 3 32, it's 3 39.
Quote
Tension 41 - The Igniting Spark the history of the looong timer:
Spoiler
The timer here is an odd one. It basically prevents some solutions where you wait around like 20+ mins for the right timing. I even gave a few extra minutes, but well your solution is a slight backroute that can't 100% be fixed without major overhauls and it's VERY slow in its execution so that you managed to even go through the extra time. I decided that it is not worth it to fix such a minor backroute back then and gave 2 minutes extra on top of my solution to prevent any of those waiting around solutions. --> The fastest waiting around solution used like 2:30min more.
Then I consider myself having failed the level under the original 10 minute timer. I might go back to this level sometime and see if I can beat it as you originally intended under the old timer, but right now I cannot see any way to improve the completion time considerably.
Quote
It amazes me how much the introduction pack already helps the player going through hard levels! Through all the intances I've read, here in this topic ALONE, contributing the knowledge of certain tricks and behaviors to the intro pack, I see that this is indeed the thing NL needed the most. It's not the new features, it's simply this - an easy way to get into the deeper mechanics of Lemmings (that is actually maintained).
It's still not done, but it will get there.
That's why I will gladly refer players to your Tutorial pack, as it has helped me tremendously, as seen by the many times I have made references to this pack in my feedback to your United pack. That reminds me. I have feedback for your Tutorial pack that I need to give you. I first completed the pack back in January, and then I recently finished the new version of the pack that was released two months ago, once I was held back by Tension 17, and many of the tricks I remembered from the Tutorial pack have definitely came in handy to help me with your United pack, especially with the War rank! :) Some time ago, I've referred one such forum member to the Tutorial pack who is currently playing through Sublems.
Despite the really hard levels, I'm definitely enjoying your pack a lot, Icho! :) Far better than Reunion. Truthfully, I've been nervous about United being too difficult even for someone like me, but as I have beaten hard packs like Reunion and Pimolems on Lemmini and so many other packs that not many people will finish entirely, this should definitely be a big sign that United shouldn't be a problem for me. Indeed, except for Neutrality 41, Tension 17, Tension 28, and Tension 34, it hasn't been too bad in stumping me very badly. Nevertheless, I can definitely see how not many people will be able to complete United to the very end or be able to get very far like me.
Onward to the Genocide rank! I'm already really nervous about starting this rank, considering that the Nightmare rank from Reunion managed to give me problems. 1 main rank and 1 bonus rank left! I can do this!
Edit: Yup, my suspicions were correct when the very first Genocide level has already managed to stump me. :crylaugh: Few hours of playing earlier tonight and still no solve. The best I've managed so far is 1 less than the save requirement, so I'm really close, but not quite there. I will try again later today. As usual, no hints yet!
hey kaywhyn I have all the replays so far downloaded except for neutrality 40. I cant find it anywhere in this board. This pack for me is way to hard but I like watching them. so far any corrected ones up to v11.0 now work. I'm just missing that one. also all the replays I just finished watching for reunion all work. Now I'm going to watch the ones Ichotot solved for lemmings world tour.
he has all the replays for that pack except only legend 39,40 and groupie 40 for the last 2 ranks in that pack. all the other ones are there.
V 11.1 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 4 03 (extended the OWWs vertically)
- 4 11 (-1 builder, +1 platformer)
- 4 24 (added some terrain)
- 4 30 (added steel)
- 4 32 (added a fire trap)
- 4 38 (removed some terrain, -1 basher)
- 4 36 (changed the mushroom postion slightly so that it is less deceiving - physics should stay the same though)
War 11 is still not completely intended. But swapping out a builder should fix this.
War 21 I leave quite open-ended and there actually quite a few different solutions out there.
War 24 100% needs some fixing.
War 30 is just one very big backroute and I think you are the first one to heavily backroute this. ;P
War 32 rilals 30 for the spot of "biggest backroute" in this batch of replays. It completely misses the trick.
Your waiting in 35 is not intended, but let's say I allow it. There are much smoother ways though.
36 is a slight variation of the intended route but still totally acceptable. I am glad to see it finally not being backrouted. :D
You have a floater leftover in 38 because you missed the trick completely. ;)
Also, my respect on solving 39 so quickly and glad to see Genocide 1 doing work :evil:.
Again thanks for the replays and good luck! :thumbsup:
Wow, never knew I was capable of backrouting this many levels. Maybe that is to be expected, considering my puzzle solving caliber, as well as the amount of replays I send, which is I try to send half and half for a rank. 20/21 levels is a lot to look at at any given time. Apparently for the penultimate rank, the War rank still needs a lot of fixing. Bet you're pretty glad to be getting these replays, and I'm glad that I can help in this regard ;)
Quote from: kaywhyn on July 08, 2020, 02:33:23 PM
Wow, never knew I was capable of backrouting this many levels. Maybe that is to be expected, considering my puzzle solving caliber, as well as the amount of replays I send, which is I try to send half and half for a rank. 20/21 levels is a lot to look at at any given time. Apparently for the penultimate rank, the War rank still needs a lot of fixing. Bet you're pretty glad to be getting these replays, and I'm glad that I can help in this regard ;)
The later ranks did not have many people solving them, so the backroute potential is definitly higher. Good hunting! :thumbsup:
And yes I am very glad to make them more backroute proof. The ammount of backroutes in your playthrough was a lot less than in the first ones. With each new player it gets better! So I am looking forward to more solutions! ;)
I agree that backroutes should be eliminated. I just didn't expect many to come from me, let alone my ability to even be able to backroute levels. Let's see how many Genocide levels I can backroute, then. If I can. :D I'll be surprised if many of them show up in the rank after I solve and send the replays to you. In any case, I'm glad you're finding the replays very helpful.
I also wonder if my written feedback is helpful, as I sometimes feel like it isn't, but that's probably just me doubting myself as usual. You probably noticed, for example, that I say that nearly every level is "excellent, great," or something along that line. IIRC there's only been like 2 levels in the pack so far, both in Tension, interestingly enough, that I said I wasn't a fan of. Thus, I don't rage as easily as others at playing and solving levels. Also goes to show you how very much I love Lemmings in general, given my very long, extensive history with the game.
One thing I noticed about the pack, I don't see any use of the new skill(jumpers). I don't know if you don't want to use them since this pack has been around. Maybe if backroutes need to be fixed, maybe jumpers could help out- just saying.
Jumpers and shimmiers weren't in NL at the time United was created and released, which is why both are completely absent from the pack. Even though they're both available now, this pack wasn't designed with those skills in mind, so Icho won't be using them for future patch versions of the pack. It's best he doesn't anyway, as then he'll have to make additional Pacifism levels introducing those skills, and 41 levels is already a lot for an individual rank anyway. Not only that, it's going to be way too much work for him to go back through each level and see where the new skills can be used. The new skills are best used for packs created after their introduction to NL, not for those packs that predate their release.
Yeah , kaywhyn. That's why I mentioned it's because the pack has been around awhile before those 2 skills. I've been downloading all the united replays as they get updated for new versions. so far I'm still missing neutrality 40 To the control room.
also with the new 11.1 version your
Tension 39 double vortex is now broken.
and with
War 3,11,24, 30,32,38 they don't work.
Ichotolot also mentioned he didn't like your waiting in War 35 but he tolorated it. I replayed it it does wait awhile for your lemmings to get into position to get that one lemming to stack from near bottom of level with lemmings going back and forth.
all other ranks replays still show green with the 11.1 update.
This pack is just way too difficult for me to play. I tried to do neutrality 40 but I cant figure out. I'm lousy at puzzle solving difficult levels.
Weird. The replay for Tension 39 should still work, as the only thing that changed is the save requirement. A few versions ago, I managed to save 1 extra on Tension 39. With the newer version, Icho changed the save requirement so that it is now exactly the amount I saved, so this should not had caused the replay to break. Yes, you will see a yellow check mark for Tension 39, but it doesn't always mean the old replay solution will break. In that case, you simply just need to run a mass replay check and it should had turned to a green checkmark no problem. And yes, several War replays broke because Icho made changes to those levels that cause my solutions to not work anymore, which means I now need to resolve them again. Several assignments in them should still be the same, but some of them will need to be changed so that it's a working solution.
Regarding Neutrality 40, you'll going to have to wait a while for that one, when I send replays for all levels, including Genocide and the Bonus ranks. It's definitely a tough one, and I remember that one taking me a while to solve. The difficulty is in large part due to how the map is really big and also so many things are happening at once that it's not obvious what/where the skills need to be used. In Icho's explanation of why it's a difficult level, the level has extremely high entropy: so many things happening and skill placements are somewhat non-obvious in that they can't automatically be placed right away.
Ah, thanks for being honest about at least attempting some of the United levels. They're quite satisfying when you finally figure the solutions out on your own. And don't worry, it's not like I myself never ever get stumped. Sometimes, it takes me hours or even days/weeks depending on the level, but if I keep at it, eventually I'll get it.
Thanks kaywhyn, I did the replay check and it found no errors. I wonder why tension 39 went to orange. when it did that I replayed the level and it didnt quite work. one of the lemmings drowned near those two luggage suitcases so it couldnt finish the level. then I did the replay check and it now works. so now all tension is good. I don't know what the replay check did but it made the level now work. Also I don't know how you have the patient to do a level that hard. that level took aprox 22min and your right save requirement is exact(22 lemmings).
also I'm fond of anybody in Deutschland (germany). I heard his voice on his commentary for the pasifism rank. I love his accent.
I took german in school and still love learning the language. It's because my dads parents were born in austria. so I had a passion to learn the language. also in 2011 I went to 4 countries in europe (germany-went to Oktoberfest-Viel Spass-a lot of fun).
anyways, Kaywhyn I love your passion for lemmings. It's also my favorite game. I grew up with it. I just wish I had the puzzle solving ability you do. Also the patient, but I just don't. But I love watching the replays. I have his reunion ones finished watching.
although your right this pack is better although harder.
Und Icholotot. In welcher Stadt in Deutschland lebst du? Ich denke die deutsche Sprache is toll(grossartig). Ich lerne Deutsch jeden Tag. Ich schaue Youtube Videos sehr oft an. Hast du die USA besucht? Und ich weiss auch Simon(Lix) lebt in Deutshland
also I notice you have Titles in this pack with german references (ie climbing the top of the Zugspitze und Kraft und Licht)
also I remember a level in reunion(very odd level) Maschen something fence(zaun). that one is kinda hard to get through all that masching of the fence you have there. anyways enough rambling.
An orange checkmark will always appear on levels whenever there's a change to the level, whether it's a save requirement, terrain changes, etc. As was mentioned previously, an orange checkmark doesn't always automatically mean that previous replay solutions will break. Instead, it means that previous replays could possibly break. All it means is that the level changed in some way that could possibly break the replay. Tension 39 is a case where I already solved it correctly by saving an extra lemming before the the save requirement was upped, and this was the only change made to the level, and so therefore the replay doesn't break. The only thing I can think of is that you might had possibly interrupted the replay, but I don't know for sure.
A large part of my great puzzle solving abilities is through the many puzzle games I grew up with. For example, I grew up with the Incredible Machine series, and while I couldn't solve all the levels as a kid, in my later years of life I came back and was able to complete all of the puzzles. Most importantly, I have played so many custom lemmings packs and that has helped me increase my solving ability tremendously. I first started off on Dos packs on Custlemm before I eventually found some packs around on Youtube and here on the forums. I pretty much started with the harder packs, mostly because I was certain that I be able to handle them. Indeed, my completing Pimolems and Reunion without ever consulting any playthroughs or solutions or hints shows that, although I still had a lot of struggles with both. I think what this has resulted in is help me develop a puzzle mindset in life. It has trained me to look at everything in life as a kind of puzzle to solve. It's also helped by how I've always been a math person.
Wow, you too, huh? I too love hearing Icho's voice on his commentary videos. I think part of what makes them so great is the way he does them and still managing to be quite entertaining and therefore fun to watch. I also got to say not bad for someone whose native language isn't English! :thumbsup: Yes, I do see his grammatical mistakes here on the forums, but I still can understand him for the most part. On the other hand, I tend to fumble my words a lot on screen despite English being my native tongue! Believe me, I've done this at times with my IG stories, and no matter how much I rehearse my speeches they always end up not being the way I want them. I also suck majorly when it comes to improv. I can't think of things to say on my feet very well and quickly.
anyways yeah those other 6 levels of war he did change so they dont work. I did a mass replay check on war and yeah
3 failed 3,24,38
and
3 undetermined 11,30,32
all 6 of these he mentions he changed so that's why they don't work. all the rest so far of war works. unless of course he updates again to change any in war or any other rank.
but Thanks about telling me about the mass replay check it's awesome.
in fact 1 level in world tour failed that icholotot had a replay for professional 28 (undetermined) so level failed but I managed to solve that one from where it failed so now I have a good professional 28.
You're welcome. Glad to hear that everything is working fine again.
also I especially like watching packs made by ichotolot. I have pimolems and dovelems. although those levels are not made by him, they were converted by him. I downloaded replays for both packs. pimolems replays are all good.
but 3 in dovelems someones replays were broken according to mass replay check. maso 16(which i solved so have good replay),
maso 18(tried to solve-was changed after the latest replays-too hard now), and bonus 1(tried to solve-too tricky for me).
Even though the 3 levels are small in size, their trickier than I think the original authors versions.
Ichotolot really likes to make or have levels made(even someone elses) hard. he is the master of hard levels. Of course for you these 2 packs are probably too easy. I'm just trying to gather replays for his packs. especially since he is German(wunderbar).
That's a possibility, but I beat the packs first on Lemmini, which is a different engine from NL. It's very likely with the levels patched up that they're much harder, but that remains to be seen, as I haven't yet tackled them on NL. Even then, I can't imagine them being that much harder than the Lemmini versions. However, let's move discussions of Dovelems and Pimolems to the relevant threads, as we're now moving the discussion away from the United pack.
Thanks for all the comments! I appreciate them! :thumbsup:
QuoteUnd Icholotot. In welcher Stadt in Deutschland lebst du? Ich denke die deutsche Sprache is toll(grossartig). Ich lerne Deutsch jeden Tag. Ich schaue Youtube Videos sehr oft an. Hast du die USA besucht? Und ich weiss auch Simon(Lix) lebt in Deutshland
Back in the days Simon and I found out that we come from the same town in central germany (Göttingen). So we had many meetups over the years. He moved lately to a nearby town that's about 30min away by car.
I have not yet visited the USA, but the time for traveling will come eventually. First, I want to finally finish up my master degree.
Weiterhin viel Erfolg beim Lernen der deutschen Sprache! ;)
Quote
also I especially like watching packs made by ichotolot. I have pimolems and dovelems. although those levels are not made by him, they were converted by him. I downloaded replays for both packs. pimolems replays are all good.
but 3 in dovelems someones replays were broken according to mass replay check. maso 16(which i solved so have good replay),
maso 18(tried to solve-was changed after the latest replays-too hard now), and bonus 1(tried to solve-too tricky for me).
Even though the 3 levels are small in size, their trickier than I think the original authors versions.
Ichotolot really likes to make or have levels made(even someone elses) hard. he is the master of hard levels. Of course for you these 2 packs are probably too easy. I'm just trying to gather replays for his packs. especially since he is German(wunderbar).
I can assure you that I only try to enforce the originally intended solutions by the authors in the cases of PimoLems and DoveLems. They were meant to be hard, but did not fully enforce it yet.
As you are mostly gathering replays I think I should pm you a nice zip file.
Quote
in fact 1 level in world tour failed that icholotot had a replay for professional 28 (undetermined) so level failed but I managed to solve that one from where it failed so now I have a good professional 28.
You remind me that I need to go back to solving that pack. But first there are other things to do.
RE: Icholotot:
thanks for the pm replays of united. I think you're awesome. you do love making difficult levels. I made a 2nd folder for these ones since they're alphabatized and the ones I gathered were just by rank. but for Neutrality 40 I copied that replay also into the original rank one and renamed it Neutrality 40. I'm just so bad at difficult levels or even medium ones but I do love watching them. And I just get so frustrated at trying to solve them. Kaywhyn loves United too. Honestly I don't have the puzzle solving ability that he does or the patient, escpecially many levels can be like 15+min in length. I Think that fact alone can make the level difficult. I remember a couple from reunion that were broken but managed to fix the replays by watching your youtube videos on those few so got all the replays now. I love the music you have for your reunion and united packs. that circus one I love. Also I love your german accent. My dads parents(my grandparents on dads side were born in austria-I even have my grandfathers death certificate stating it). So i have a fondness with the german language. also english and german are so closely connected, making german that much easier of a language to learn. Here in California where I live I hear outside of english alot of spanish which I have no interest in. Many people think I'm german by my last name(Derkovits) but austrian(german speaking country though). I visited salzburg(I love that town-even went on the Sound of Music Tour). My wish next is to visit germany for xmas as I want to see the german xmas markets(would have gone this year but not for the corona virus). I love listening to the german xmas ones on youtube(stille Nacht and many more).
Anyways too much rambling. But thanks for the replays. Now I can see all the intended solutions vs other players versions which makes it so you have to update.
NOTE: Kaywhn no need for Neutrality 40 anymore as I got it now from Icholotot(he is awesome). but I will continue to gather replays from you as they change in future updates.
oh one last thing I also downloaded your(icholotot's) lix multiplayer levels. When I have time will try to finish these as well.
Ok, sounds good. It might take a while before you get more replays from me, depending on how badly the Genocide levels get me stuck. I like seeing solutions from different people of the same level, too. Unless there's only 1 solution to the level, it's unlikely people will solve the level in the exact same way. It's also fun to compare my solutions to other people's.
Quote
Here in California where I live
Cheers, eric! I knew you were from the west coast USA because you mentioned the time being the same as where I live, but it's awesome to know you're from California just like me.
RE: Icholotot
if you happen to have Dovelems maso 18(Take a step ahead) and Bonus 1(Pletorah's Temple) replays that would be cool tool.
those 2 I tried to solve just too hard for me. I managed to solve Maso 16 (Complete Auturky) which was broken originally.
all the other replays from Dovelems are Good and all Pimolems replays are good so don't need those.
so just need those 2 replays from Dovelems.
Und Danke fur Alles.
RE: Icholotot
thanks alot now I have all your neolemmix replays, Reunion, United, Pimolems and now Dovelems. also thanks for the pm of the 2 dovelem replays that I were missing. now all i need is the replays when you get around it for World tour legend(minus 39,40) and groupie(minus 40). I have all of yours replays for the other ranks of world tour.
and Kaywhyn it's ok about the replays. take your time. I have all icholotots 11.1 replays even for genecide and bonus which you haven't completed yet. although their certainly will be changes so even the 11.1 ones i have they will change. At least I'm glad someone is working on this pack, so I know that when changes happen I will hopefully get the final versions replays whether from yours or icholotot's. as I stated I'm lousy at solving even slighty medium ones. plus I just don't have the patience to attempt these not only are they extremely difficult but so many levels are long in time. also many maps like you said are huge (ie Neutrality 40 which I couldn't even come close to solving. But I love watching these levels. His maps are gorgeous and his tunes are awesome.
@admins: Please move eric's post above to the Dovelems topic.
@eric FYI, if you want to post/discuss Dovelems, go to https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3242.0 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3242.0) instead. I'm sure Icho would appreciate it if we could limit discussions here to just about the United pack, since that's what this topic is for. Just a way to keep everything in their own discussion topics.
sorry about that Kaywhyn. Here will be only from now on be about united. It's just I'm kinda new at this forum stuff. i transfered it myself by copying it to dovelems and removing it here.
No worries, eric. At least you're slowly becoming familiar with everything here on the site. You're good, man. Nothing wrong with your posts at all, some are just not in the right place/topic. I myself certainly wouldn't want different level pack discussions to be mixed up in a thread that's supposed to be about United. It's just like it doesn't matter how well written your paper is. If it's off-topic, I would give it a score of 0 or 1 (I'm a math teacher, not an English teacher). This is definitely a friendly bunch who are willing to help out in any way they can.
a math teacher huh. maybe that explains partly why you're so good at doing these United Levels. you can figure out ways to get lemmings to their destination
I attribute it more to the experience I have gained from all the many custom level packs I've played over the years. That's what has increased my puzzle solving abilities tremendously. Also, Icho's Neolemmix Tutorial pack has helped me a lot with some of the harder United levels. Yes, many of the United levels have been hard for me and have slowed my progress, but so far they all haven't been anything I couldn't handle. Even now, I've managed to solve a few Genocide levels, but I'm still nervous about what's to come and whether I'll be able to handle them. In any case, since I'm already quite far into United and am somewhat close to the end, I'm going to keep going until I finally beat the pack, or the pack beats me.
Really, it's just all about knowing which skills will help in each situation and which ones won't and whether it's possible to save skills for someplace else. For many of the United levels I got stuck on, a lot of the time I kept thinking I'm a skill short, I simply approached the level incorrectly, or I can't let go of a solution that I think should work but it ultimately won't. In the third case, sometimes it takes me a while to find a novel, different approach to the level due to how I've tried the same route that keeps failing. A really good example is War 36. In my feedback, I said that I constantly kept fighting between two possible routes, one which almost works but doesn't because the fall is fatal by 1 pixel, but I couldn't let this one go for a long time, because I kept thinking about the other possible route but because I kept thinking about it incorrectly in my mind I thought it wouldn't work either, so I kept coming back to the other "almost works but fall is fatal by 1 pixel" route. Even if it wasn't a fatal fall, the problem is that you would always end up 1 platformer short. So, for a very long time, I kept trying different things between the two routes, and after a time, I finally found one which worked to solve the level. In the end, Icho said that mine is a "slight variation of the intended route but is acceptable for him." He was really relieved that I didn't backroute the level, because it had already gone through so many different versions.
So far, there have only been 4 United levels that have stumped me for more than a week. Everything else about 1.5 - 2 days or less. I think this will very likely change with the Genocide levels. Ultimately, most of the time I'm able to get by the roadblocks if I keep at it long enough, most likely after I take an extended break by getting away from the level for a while or I play other level packs in the meantime. Getting away from a level you're stuck on really helps to clear your mind so that the next time you come back to the level you're looking at it with a fresh start. Interestingly enough, so far all the United levels I encountered that have time limits have all been really hard levels for me. Of course, a lot of the United levels with infinite time have been difficult for me too, but I find it interesting that all the ones with time limits have all been hard for me. Now, in contrast to most people here, I love time limits in this game, especially since I'm a math person and I love numbers. Except for Tension 41, they're all really short levels. It just goes to show you that even with a small time limit, short levels can still be deceivingly tough. In other words, short levels have the tendency to look easy, but in actuality they can be really hard levels. War 36 has been the most difficult timed United level so far for me, although that might change with the Genocide levels, and I'm quite certain there will be some timed levels in the rank. Similarly, long levels tend to look very difficult, and they generally are, but in actuality some long levels are easier than they appear. I guess even intimidation can affect one's ability to solve a long level, but this is just a psychological effect trying to mess with you.
Generally, what I do when solving a level is I place the obvious skills first. Got a wide water gap with a low ceiling that you need to get across? It's obvious that a platformer goes here! Need to go from a low place to a really high place, and the walls have vertical scalable edges? Obviously a climber needs to be used! I'm sure pretty much everyone here does this, so I'm sure I'm not the only one. I find this very helpful, because then it's easier to work with the skills you have left. Then next you try to place the non-obvious skills. Sometimes, there's more than one possible skill choice to use at a particular spot, so this sometimes takes some trial-and-error to determine the correct skill to use. You try one of the skills, and if that leads to an eventual situation where it won't help solve the level, then this generally means the other skill is the correct one to use instead. Not always, though. In the course of using one possible skill for a particular spot, it's possible that other skill placements in other places where there's more than one possibility were placed incorrectly themselves.
In general, I'm just a huge puzzle lover, especially math puzzles. This definitely has also helped with my lemming level solving abilities, as I mentioned before this has kind of ingrained a sort of puzzle mentality in me, where I take everything in life that needs to be figured out as a kind of puzzle to solve.
Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5. 5 days of hashing things out and still no solve. Looks like I'm not worthy enough to beat your United pack, Icho. :( Seeing how I'm currently stuck, I'll just send replays now. Here are War 3, 11, 24, 30, 32, and 38 resolved, along with the new replays Genocide 1 through 4. Have I managed to backroute any of the Genocide levels? In this batch, I highly doubt it.
Regarding the resolved levels, unless you say otherwise, these all seem to be intended now, so I'm quite certain these are the final versions of all the War levels and therefore the rank doesn't need anymore fixing.
Spoiler
War 3 - Stairs of Sacrifice Now I finally use all skills. It's also a way more difficult, decent challenge, as it took me some time to resolve this.
War 11 - Hellraisers Didn't really need to change much here, just needed to simply swap a platformer for a builder or vice versa in some places. I also temporarily raised the RR, even though it might not be needed had I placed the bashers more carefully.
War 24 - Temperance and Vengeance Nice level! This time I used all skills/pickups, and it also took me a while to resolve, but it was an easy solve once I realized that swimmers can also be stoned. I may be a lover of time limits in this game, but truthfully the timer is unnecessary here, especially since it does not add to the challenge at all and I don't know what backroutes it would block, since the level now seems backroute proof. As long as everything is done in the exact order shown, you will never run out of time.
War 30 - Journey to the Coast Now that this level has been fixed up, this level has officially replaced War 11 as my most favorite level of the rank! :thumbsup: The level has become so much harder with the changes, and so it took me a while to work out, but it's a really great level! Even with the steel, I still didn't automatically eliminate the path I took to go down before. However, I remember reading about the blocker release with a basher but basher still turns around trick some time ago on this forum, and I even used it in a solution in either a MegSEBytes or a Wafflem level (don't remember which pack it was) even though it's not really needed. However, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position, so perhaps it should be swapped with a level that's considered a bit easy for its position. For this, I think either War 38 or even War 40 are good candidates to swap with this. Even though both 38 and 40 require tricks of their own (former requires miner trick, latter requires stopping a digger with a blocker trick), they're easier to work out in those levels. Or maybe even War 37. Dolly Dimple trick and upping the release rate at the right time, but is otherwise an easy level. Plus it'll be a bit closer to War 32, which also requires the Dolly Dimple trick.
War 32 - Eternally Revolving Ah, this was the trick that was completely missed the first time I solved it. I've seen this Dolly Dimple builder trick too many times. This level still took a while to work out. However, that was a really nice use of the platformer trick so a basher can continue and release the blocker! :thumbsup: Here, a platformer is not used to bridge a gap, the one I used to span the gap to the right where the lemmings fall down to in the other replay, and so technically I could had solved the level and have a platformer leftover that time.
War 38 - Imperial Basin I've already seen this miner trick many times that ultimately forces use of the floater that I had leftover last time, and so it wasn't difficult to work out.
Now the new Genocide levels, along with my thoughts on Genocide 5. Out of this batch, both Genocide 3 and 4 were the easiest ones.
Spoiler
Genocide 1 - QUOLA Wow, this one took about 3 hours to work out. Before when I was 1 short of the requirement, I mined and then quickly platformed once the lead lemming dropped a level. Despite using platformers to seal off the gap and to delay some lemmings, one lemming would always slip by. Still, nice level to start off the ranking! Not a difficult solution, just difficult to spot and requires delaying with a miner and maxing the RR so that all lemmings turn around before the miner breaks through while the lead lemming platforms straight across and climbs.
Genocide 2 - Downrising This one also took me a while to work out but is a bit easier than the previous one. Nice level!
Genocide 3 - You Gotta Party Harty Excellent level! The lemming that was walking back and forth in the basher tunnel was completely unnecessary on my part.
Genocide 4 - Marble, Stone, and Iron Breaks Another nice level! Like War 38, I've seen the digger build in midair trick so many times, and hence why the level was easy for me.
Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins Unsolved even after 5 days. Not sure if I'm just stupid or if it's supposed to be a hard level. If it's supposed to be hard, the main reason why the level is hard is simple: There are more walls to get through or go over than the amount of bashers given. As a matter of fact, just one more basher and it would had been level solved already. The main challenge, then, is how to get through the walls with less bashers rather than spend one basher per wall. This is what I haven't figured out yet. I've tried looking for platformer setups where bashers can continue due to the terrain added, but it seems that the walls are too far apart from one another and would require more than one platformer or I can't get such setups. Other than this, the builder to get a fencer to keep going is really obvious, but I'm not certain if a builder needs to be used for that purpose or should be used somewhere else. So, either this level requires an obscure trick that I'm not aware of, or I'm just stupid.
Also, I'm quite certain that I have eliminated going over the top with all the clam traps from being part of the solution. This requires a builder splatform from a lemming at the bottom entrance, but the problem is that at least one builder needs to be used to avoid the first few clam traps with the bottom entrance, and there's the two steel block wall that absolutely requires a builder, which means going over the top has to be an impossibility. I also thought about possibly trapping the bottom crowd without using a digger pit, but I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible, as the other skills just can't contain them. So really, I'm stuck quite badly.
It all goes without saying that I still intend to keep going until the very end, as I'm now 66 levels away from the finish. Just that for the time being, Genocide 5 is the new roadblock for me.
Also, since you either read it or it probably somehow got missed in the jumble of posts that followed after my two replies after you posted a new version, I'll ask it here:
Are you finding my written feedback helpful? I know you're finding my replays helpful, but what about my written feedback? I asked about this the last time, but again it might had been overlooked. As you can see, I like to be helpful in any way I can so that you can improve the levels in this pack in the best way possible. There's certainly many reasons to, the top one especially being that this pack is great in so many ways and many times better than your first pack.
Keep up the great work! ;P
V 11.2 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 4 32 (reduced Lemming count to 30 and save req to 29)
- 5 01 (added a OWW)
QuoteWell, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5.
That is a bit surprising. Level 5 was not a roadblock before, but nice to see it finally working. ;) Just don't get stuck with your thoughts on one certain path. Maybe think outside of the boxes.
I know that you can do it though, you faced worse things! :thumbsup: No, seriously you will see once you solved it that you really faced worse.
War 24 - Temperance and Vengeance: This is finally intended! :thumbsup:
War 32 - Eternally Revolving: No, that's still a total backroute, even worse than the other ones. Reducing the lemming count will hopefully put an end to this without giving away much of the actual solution. ;P
War 30 - Journey to the Coast: Spoiler
I remember reading about the blocker release with a basher but basher still turns around trick some time ago on this forum
That trick is not nessesary to solve this level. It can be done in a way more basic way.
QuoteHowever, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position,
So you made it harder for yourself here. ;)
In general:
I don't plan on doing much about level positioning anymore though. A few ups and downs in the curve are fine with me, even more as it really seems that different people find different levels hard/easy. This was not a big deal for the other 2 persons solving it for example - they had other roadblocks though.
Genocide 1 - QUOLANope that's still quite a backroute. A OWW should stop this.
Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed CoffinsIt's so nice to see the level layout finally working as intended and giving you doubts about the path you should take. :devil: Before it was either backrouted or people took the right approach.
I already see in your comment that you locked some skill locations in your head. Maybe let's be a bit more open minded. ;)
Everything else was intended! :thumbsup:
QuoteAlso, since you either read it or it probably somehow got missed in the jumble of posts that followed after my two replies after you posted a new version, I'll ask it here: Are you finding my written feedback helpful? I know you're finding my replays helpful, but what about my written feedback? I asked about this the last time, but again it might had been overlooked. As you can see, I like to be helpful in any way I can so that you can improve the levels in this pack in the best way possible. There's certainly many reasons to, the top one especially being that this pack is great in so many ways and many times better than your first pack.
All you written feedback will be considered. If not directly in this pack then you can be certain that I keep on gathering information for future projects on what works, what people found difficult/easy, what was disliked, what were the approaches,........
There are always things to learn and data needs to be collected! ;)
Prime example: LOTY 2019 resulted on the received information about the Reunion level "The Face of Evil". The style of the solution was very liked and I wanted to recapture the essence of it.
Curses! I was pretty certain that all War levels have now been fixed up. However, good to know that only one remains in the War rank. Also, only 4 Genocide levels solved and I managed to backroute the very first one? Now that's surprising, to me. Go me, I guess lol :D
Quote
QuoteWell, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5.
That is a bit surprising. Level 5 was not a roadblock before, but nice to see it finally working. ;) Just don't get stuck with your thoughts on one certain path. Maybe think outside of the boxes.
I know that you can do it though, you faced worse things! :thumbsup: No, seriously you will see once you solved it that you really faced worse.
Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins
It's so nice to see the level layout finally working as intended and giving you doubts about the path you should take. :devil: Before it was either backrouted or people took the right approach.
I already see in your comment that you locked some skill locations in your head. Maybe let's be a bit more open minded. ;)
Thanks for the encouragement! In that case, yea, I'm just stupid then. I have the personal tendency to doubt myself a lot. Really, the thing that's keeping me going with the pack is just how I'm very close to the end of this huge pack. Certainly all the very tough hurdles I struggled with and eventually succeeded in getting past in the earlier ranks definitely contributed to providing me more encouragement to keep going. At the same time, I was also stuck on War 6 for a few days so I guess it's not too bad that I'm already stuck this early in the Genocide rank. For War 6, that was just me being stupid. This also ties back to what I said about difficulty being subjective. Levels you and others found hard I might had found easy and similarly levels I found hard you and others might had found easy. So, this probably means I'm not alone in thinking I'm stupid for levels in the latter, as there's most likely others in the exact same situation.
Quote
Spoiler
I remember reading about the blocker release with a basher but basher still turns around trick some time ago on this forum
That trick is not nessesary to solve this level. It can be done in a way more basic way.
QuoteHowever, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position,
So you made it harder for yourself here. ;)
Aha, another case of me unnecessarily overcomplicating the solution, similar to what I did on War 20 with the whole miner cancelling. In that case, forget what I said about moving the level further down the rank, although I know you already said that even if it did require the obscure trick I used you're not going to move it, as you're ok with fluctuating spikes in difficulty. No pack is perfect in going from easy to difficult all the time. Good point! ;)
Quote
All you written feedback will be considered. If not directly in this pack then you can be certain that I keep on gathering information for future projects on what works, what people found difficult/easy, what was disliked, what were the approaches,........
There are always things to learn and data needs to be collected! ;)
Good to know! ;) I kept thinking my written feedback was being ignored. Thanks as usual for the encouragement and support and again I'm glad to hear that I'm being very helpful in helping you improve and eliminate backroutes. ;P
hi Kaywhn, Also I want to give you encouragement to continue this pack as I want to see Icho fix backroutes. Also your the only one currently playing the hardest levels. also I collect replays from you too. I keep 2 separate folders of replays. one with others(including some of your non-backrouted war ones as well as other ranks from previous peoples.), and of course icho's p.m.
ones in his separate folder. I like to compare even ones that weren't backrouted but still have tiny differences in replays, I really think your awesome in doing this pack as this is one of the hardest packs out there. You have such williness and patient to do this.
And I have the upmost confidence in you finishing it. I couldn't even begin to tackle this pack (way above me).
Also as long as the updated versions that Icho does have replays that work from others, then I keep those too. I only remove others replays when he updates the pack and those don't work anymore.
I really enjoy your posts and I'm sure Icho appreciates your replays to remove backroutes with updates versions.
and maybe down the road Icho will do some more commentary on United on Youtube at least the next rank (Neutrality).
I really enjoy his ones.
Quote from: ericderkovits on July 16, 2020, 12:16:30 AM
hi Kaywhn, Also I want to give you encouragement to continue this pack as I want to see Icho fix backroutes. I really think your awesome in doing this pack as this is one of the hardest packs out there. You have such williness and patient to do this.
And I have the upmost confidence in you finishing it. I couldn't even begin to tackle this pack (way above me).
I really enjoy your posts and I'm sure Icho appreciates your replays to remove backroutes with updates versions.
and maybe down the road Icho will do some more commentary on United on Youtube at least the next rank (Neutrality).
I really enjoy his ones.
You are way too kind, eric. Thank you very kindly, sir! Much appreciated. :) Well, thanks to both of you gentlemen's encouragement, I finally solved Genocide 5 last night. Indeed, this whole time I was stuck I was simply a dumb dumb, because
Spoiler
I kept incorrectly thinking that it was impossible to send a disarmer from the bottom entrance to the top part of the level due to the trap at the top because of how it's impossible to disarm it (well, not absolutely impossible, because it is possible, but then it won't be possible to solve the level). Once I challenged this incorrect assumption and started trying things around there, the lightbulb came on and then hooray, I did it. No fancy tricks needed, just a standard puzzle with an absolute red herring path that I couldn't dismiss for a very long time. Well Icho, you managed to fool me with the path of platforming across the 3 water gaps for a really long time. The only hard part is timing a climber at the top so that he doesn't get too far ahead of the disarmer once he does make it to the top after sealing off the top and bottom to catch the disarmer as he falls from hitting the platformer brick at the top. Also, this is the type of level that looks to be a "disjoint union" but is not! Indeed, for the most part it is, but even though only one lemming from the bottom interacts with the top, that's still enough to make it a non-disjoint union. That's another reason why I thought that it had to be possible to send the disarmer up to the top of the level, because I remember reading Icho's take on disjoint unions on this forum. Just for a long time I couldn't figure out how to do it. Otherwise, not a difficult level at all!
So how did the solution come about? I experimented by sending a climber from the top entrance and platformed to the land hanging above the entrance. Platformed some more after the basher broke through, then that's where I realized that it is possible to get the disarmer from the bottom to the top after all. The rest is history.
Ironic that I completely ignored my own advice I gave to another forumer on a Sublems level he's currently stuck on of "terrain that appears to be decoration you can possibly use to your advantage to solve the level." Indeed, it never occurred to me that the terrain right above the top entrance was so integral to the solution! :forehead:
Well, onward!
More replays inbound! Here are Genocide 5 through 14, as well as War 32 and Genocide 1 resolved. Definitely starting to get really difficult. I would had waited until the halfway point before sending replays, but having finally solved Genocide 14 just now after being stumped on it so badly for a few days, it got me exhausted. Let's see how many of these I managed to backroute. I'm guessing Genocide 7 and even Genocide 14? Nevertheless, I still intend to keep going and finish the pack. 27 main levels left!
Regarding resolved War 32, I think we can now declare all of the War rank finally backroute free! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
War 32 - Eternally Revolving Now I know why the level is called Eternally Revolving. Wow, nice trick here! I was definitely aware of the temporary blocker and then stoning it to release the crowd with a basher from earlier attempts in the earlier versions of the level, but I didn't think to use it here for a while. AFAIK, you're the very first person I know to make use of this! Great job! :thumbsup: I like how the worker lemming has to circle around the bottom a couple of times to platform the gaps before using the top of the level to finish the rest. Very nice puzzle!
Genocide 1 - QUOLA How's this, better? Almost the same thing, although I needed to do some RR adjustment at the beginning due to not using the bomber at the beginning this time. Nice trick with bombing a basher midstroke!
Now for the new replays
Spoiler
Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins Nice puzzle here! I already gave feedback for this level, so I'm just going to copy it here.
I kept incorrectly thinking that it was impossible to send a disarmer from the bottom entrance to the top part of the level due to the trap at the top because of how it's impossible to disarm it (well, not absolutely impossible, because it is possible, but then it won't be possible to solve the level). Once I challenged this incorrect assumption and started trying things around there, the lightbulb came on and then hooray, I did it. No fancy tricks needed, just a standard puzzle with an absolute red herring path that I couldn't dismiss for a very long time. Well Icho, you managed to fool me with the path of platforming across the 3 water gaps for a really long time. The only hard part is timing a climber at the top so that he doesn't get too far ahead of the disarmer once he does make it to the top after sealing off the top and bottom to catch the disarmer as he falls from hitting the platformer brick at the top. Also, this is the type of level that looks to be a "disjoint union" but is not! Indeed, for the most part it is, but even though only one lemming from the bottom interacts with the top, that's still enough to make it a non-disjoint union. That's another reason why I thought that it had to be possible to send the disarmer up to the top of the level, because I remember reading Icho's take on disjoint unions on this forum. Just for a long time I couldn't figure out how to do it. Otherwise, not a difficult level at all!
So how did the solution come about? I experimented by sending a climber from the top entrance and platformed to the land hanging above the entrance. Platformed some more after the basher broke through, then that's where I realized that it is possible to get the disarmer from the bottom to the top after all. The rest is history.
Ironic that I completely ignored my own advice I gave to another forumer on a Sublems level he's currently stuck on of "terrain that appears to be decoration you can possibly use to your advantage to solve the level." Indeed, it never occurred to me that the terrain right above the top entrance was so integral to the solution!
Genocide 6 - Chanson d'Automne Another great level. However, I do feel like all those traps at the top the disarmer disarms aren't necessary. The level can still be done with less of the traps. However, that was a pretty nice trick with the first stoner. Also, I initially tried doing a stoner builder for the second to last gap, but every time the crowd would always arrive before the builder was done. I thought two builders wouldn't work for it for some reason. Turns out I need to build in such a way that it catches the climber and that the climber is able to bridge the gap to the right.
Genocide 7 - Braindead Mummys This is likely a backroute, since I have a stoner leftover and that allowed me to spare the trapped lemming that collected the bomber pickup. Also, it has nothing to do with the solution of the level, but the correct spelling is "mummies." In English, the general rule is if a noun ends with a consonant and y, to make it plural, the y changes to an "i" and then you add "es." So, the correct spelling is mummies, not mummys. Just thought I let you know that we can probably correct the misspelling of the level title.
Genocide 8 - Pitch Black O.o, this was a really good level. The tricky part was getting up to the next level at the beginning. Once I figured that out, the rest was easy.
Genocide 9 - Laboratory Evacuation Aha, the first timed level of the rank. Much sooner than I thought. Once again, this continued the trend of timed levels in the pack being pretty difficult, because this was somewhat a hard level itself. The most difficult part is the very beginning. Initially, I thought I could get a lemming bouncing off a blocker to fall into the bomber hole to bash them out, but after several tries it turns out that it's not possible. Instead, one has to rely on two platformers building in such a way that one of them builds into the brick of another and turns around. After that, the tricky thing is timing the lemmings so that the diggers will allow the crowd to make it to the exit without falling into the water. I loved seeing the solution in action. I had 7 seconds left.
Genocide 10 - Where Secrets Sway I love this level! Lots of nice tricks here. The builder trick from War 28 returns here, and new trick of a blocker turning falling lemmings in midair. For a while, I kept thinking a builder was needed for the very end, but then it would render the level unsolvable. Once I realized that, it took me a while to wonder how I could get the lemmings into the exit without one, and then suddenly the idea of using a blocker to turn around fallers in midair came to me. I quickly tested that idea, and when I saw that it works, the rest came easy to me.
Genocide 11 - Embracing Entropy Wow, what a great level! It seemed really difficult at first, but the solution is not that hard. I kept thinking to use the left side to get the lemmings back up, but it's impossible to without using up too many skills that are needed elsewhere. After a while, it then occurred to me to use the right side where the evil eyes are. Almost ignored my own advice of "terrain that appears to be decoration can be used to solve the level..." again :crylaugh: Loved that cloning the builder trick a second time so that the one building right can circle back before the clone finishes sealing the gap.
Genocide 12 - Stone Cold Crazy Loved the Dolly Dimple trick and mining through the builder bridge and also releasing the blocker all in one. The digger assignment is super precise. I'm not sure if any other positions work. I didn't have to use the floaters, but I'm guessing that is ok.
Genocide 13 - Descent Into Cerberon I saw the solution in 5 minutes, so this was a really easy level for me. Thanks for the easy setup that told exactly where to start building the bridges. I think the solution would had been even cooler if the miner bounced off two blockers instead of just one, but that's just my opinion.
Genocide 14 - Vortex of Plans Wow, by far the hardest level I have encountered thus far in the rank. I was stuck on this level for 2 days and then some. For a while, I wondered if the lemmings were supposed to be contained at the bottom or if I could seal the gaps before any fell in. If they were supposed to be contained, it took me a really long time to figure out how to get them out. Turns out the assignments to do so are super precise. The climber has to mine the instant he is able to after hoisting, then after 5 strokes, he has to be assigned a walker in midstroke. Also, I think there's only one basher position that will allow the crowd to get up, and also only 1 position for the builder. Right there that's 4 extreme precision assignments!
The most difficult part was the middle with the stacker. This took a while to refine. For a long time, I thought the stack had to be lined up exactly with the right edge of the platform so a climber can get up, but the problem with this is that I would need to waste two walkers, one to turn a lemming that slipped past the stack and another to interrupt a basher midstroke. This would end up causing a lot of problems, since I wouldn't have anything to stop a miner at the very end.
Then I started playing with the stacker position after just one platformer. Most of my attempts I assigned a walker to a lemming just before falling off a stack and mining so that the lemmings can get up on the stack. All well and good, until I saw that either the crowd cannot get up on the platform after bashing away from the top and then platforming to seal the gap, or the crowd is able to get up but then cannot get up more after sealing the gap with a platformer. After trying several readjustments in the timing of when to stack, it kept failing, so I almost gave up and was about to send my best replay attempt to you.
Then, I had an idea of possibly doing the level so that I wouldn't need to seal the gap to the left after using a destructive skill to get the lemmings up the stack. Nope, a miner, would always break and leave a gap in the wall. Then I tried a basher to the right instead. When interrupting a basher midstroke, turns out a 1 pixel gap would always result at the top. However, at least the wall is left intact so that no platforming to the left is necessary to seal a gap. But, more disappointment as I saw that a lemming wouldn't platform to the right to seal off the 1 pixel gap. Ugh! >:(
Finally, I found a stacker position that did work so that a lemming got up on the stack after a few bricks to bash and then interrupt midstroke. This resulted in a hole wide enough that allowed a lemming to platform to the right. So, level finally solved after all this madness and almost giving up. Even after all this madness, I have a floater and miner leftover, so ultimately in the end a backroute? And to think it was finally backroute free after having gone through so many versions! :evil: For the record, the stacker had to be placed at just the right time, and it's super precise, as well as the basher and walker to interrupt him. So, this makes 7 precise assignments in total!
Oh, funny thing about the clouds. One time, I happened to activate CPM and I saw the clouds were a light shade of grey, not dark shade of grey, and my reaction: Wait a minute, it's terrain, not background? That changes everything! Had I not realized that, this level would had been impossible for me.
Also, you mentioned that you changed the mushroom position slightly on War 36. What I want to know is if we're talking about the same one. In my feedback for the level, the one I was referring to is the slanted mushroom pointing down to the left on the slanted slope in the middle. When I load up the level, it all looks the same to me except maybe for one of the mushrooms in the pond in the middle. That's not the one I was referring to in my feedback. So, which one did you change the position of slightly, the slanted one or the one near the water?
Onward and hoping the remaining Genocide levels don't trump me too badly. After the brutal Genocide 14, I'm not too hopeful, but as I said I still intend to go through til the very end. I've made it too far into the pack to possibly stop now.
Once again, thank you for the encouragement to keep going. Good to know I'm being cheered on by some, pack author included, to keep going and finish the pack once and for all! :thumbsup:
yes kaywhyn, I want you to finish the pack, however long it takes, even if some levels take days or whatever. I'm keeping an eye out for your replays. any that aren't backroutes that he updates for I keep. if the pack gets updated and your replays fail then I remove them. Boy you really are determined to do this. I just wouldnt have the patient to try to solve a level after many days.
But I wish you continued success.
This is the kind of pack where levels cannot be solved very quickly. Due to the high difficulty of the pack, it's definitely not for the faint of heart. It is also expected that one who takes on the pack be able to sit and think through these levels. As Icho has mentioned, and I completely agree with his assessment here, we're seeing that players often give up way too early, whether they're still far away from the solution or are very close. I seem to be one of those players who has a much higher level of patience than most when it comes to solving levels. I have mentioned several times before that I'm willing to get stuck, and stay stuck, for however long it takes on a level. The huge amount of experience I have gained from completing so many level packs over the years has also come in handy for United. The point of this is that any kind of progress you make on a level, whether small or large, helps, and that you keep coming back to the level and keep trying until you succeed.
For the record, it's almost been an entire year since I started playing United. Lots has happened in the meantime: busy working a job, I play other level packs/games in the meantime when I'm terribly stuck on a United level, etc. At the rate this is going, assuming I don't get too terribly stuck on the remaining levels and that not many backroutes remain, it should be about another 3-4 weeks before I'm finally done with the pack. However, as has been said before, I will take my time and take however long it takes. I also don't like skipping around, as I prefer to play levels in order. This means that if I'm stuck on a level, I don't go to any other level ahead in the pack until I solve the one I'm stuck on. In comparison, Reunion took me about 3 months to complete, in large part because of the limited amount of time I had each day due to working a job and how I have a life outside of Lemmings. And that was when I first played it on Lemmini which doesn't have all the player assist tools like framestepping and time skips! Nevertheless, Reunion is by far much easier, in large part because it only uses the classic 8 skills which I'm extremely familiar with. Perhaps I can start playing the NL version of it next, once I finish United, but it's not really a top priority for me since I already finished it once on Lemmini.
I thought maybe you already did reunion on neolemmix since it was an older pack. I also thought you mentioned you thought United was better so I assumed (I guess incorrectly) that you did it already. I have all reunion's replays which I already watched although there not Icho's but they all work as of the current release. I gathered the latest ones up that work.
although I guess they may vary from his list (which may be nice to have). Also there hasn't been a mention about that pack in a while so I assume that pack has been backrouted fixed already.
But I definately think United has better-looking maps and much cooler Tunes.
Maybe If Icho does another big pack(not sure if he wants to take that much time on one) using the shimmier and jumper.
although I know that there will be a 20th new skill so maybe it would be better to wait on a big pack until that comes out.
Anyway I'm willing to wait till you finish the pack no matter the time as I want backroutes to be taken care of and plus I like having others replays too in addition to Icho's. Maybe when you finish the pack with no other mention of backroutes being fixed, he can P.M. you his list too as it is still nice to have a set because they may differ slightly in your set although your's is still not backrouted.
V 11.3 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 4 36 (Removed a mushroom for clarity purposes)
- 5 01 (extended a OWW)
- 5 07 (added a terrain block)
Comments:War 32 - Eternally RevolvingTotally intended! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
The trick has its origins from one of namida's levels though. ;)
I just knew I should have extended that OWW!
Genocide 6 - Chanson d'AutomneLet's say the level had quite a few problems back then and at some point I just put a few more traps than the minimum up there. ;P
Genocide 9 - Laboratory EvacuationA few seconds and permanent skills left over are totally fine here. :)
Genocide 12 - Stone Cold CrazyFloaters are optional.
Let's just say with a bit more clever positioning of other skills the digger wouldn't have been so precise. ;P
Genocide 14 - Vortex of PlansOh, boy. Let's just say you found the more precise and more timing heavy challenge version. ;)
I was thinking about culling the miner and use your solution, but I think that is overkill.
Spoiler
Normally for the stepping up on the left side part you have an additional basher to spare. This results in less precision and lesstiming. You can release the crowd below with 2 miners then.
QuoteAlso, you mentioned that you changed the mushroom position slightly on War 36. What I want to know is if we're talking about the same one. In my feedback for the level, the one I was referring to is the slanted mushroom pointing down to the left on the slanted slope in the middle. When I load up the level, it all looks the same to me except maybe for one of the mushrooms in the pond in the middle. That's not the one I was referring to in my feedback. So, which one did you change the position of slightly, the slanted one or the one near the water?
I NEVER would have suspected THAT mushroom to be relevant in a scenario! Removed it, as it was purely decorational.
QuoteMaybe If Icho does another big pack(not sure if he wants to take that much time on one) using the shimmier and jumper.
although I know that there will be a 20th new skill so maybe it would be better to wait on a big pack until that comes out.
For now consider the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack as my next big pack. ;)
I do plan another one after that though, but easier or on Reunion's level as it should be a bit of a bridge challenge wise from the Intro Pack to harder stuff.
Nice, only two considered backroutes among the first 14 Genocide levels, with the first one I must resolve once more.
Quote from: IchoTolot on July 20, 2020, 04:18:59 PM
Genocide 14 - Vortex of Plans
Oh, boy. Let's just say you found the more precise and more timing heavy challenge version. ;)
I was thinking about culling the miner and use your solution, but I think that is overkill.
Haha, I was thinking the exact same thing of it being overkill with removing a miner, but since I don't know what's intended and seeing how much struggle I've been through in solving the level, in a way I'm glad to hear that you won't be changing the level some more. I've seen that the level has probably gone through like 10 different versions based on the change logs in the previous pages, which really indicates that this level was indeed a problem child.
Quote
Spoiler
Normally for the stepping up on the left side part you have an additional basher to spare. This results in less precision and lesstiming. You can release the crowd below with 2 miners then.
See, I tried this and didn't think it would work because of how 1 builder wasn't enough to get the crowd out or it would seal the gap but then require a basher and a walker to get them out. Guess I'll try that again and see for myself later on.
Quote from: ericderkovits on July 20, 2020, 02:02:38 PM
I thought maybe you already did reunion on neolemmix since it was an older pack. I also thought you mentioned you thought United was better so I assumed (I guess incorrectly) that you did it already. I have all reunion's replays which I already watched although there not Icho's but they all work as of the current release. I gathered the latest ones up that work.
although I guess they may vary from his list (which may be nice to have). Also there hasn't been a mention about that pack in a while so I assume that pack has been backrouted fixed already.
Nope, I first solved all of Reunion on Lemmini. Since that version is no longer maintained, backroutes do abound. I know a few from the Nightmare ranking have backroutes, including the final level, because I use the stuck climber glitch to solve it. The NL version most likely still have some backroutes, but I'm not certain. From what I have seen so far, United is definitely many times better than Reunion, but nope, I have yet to finish the pack.
That reminds me Icho. How accurate was my assessment when I told eric that you won't be changing any United levels so that jumpers/shimmiers are included since those two skills came long after United was released? I should had let you answer that instead of me.
QuoteThat reminds me Icho. How accurate was my assessment when I told eric that you won't be changing any United levels so that jumpers/shimmiers are included since those two skills came long after United was released? I should had let you answer that instead of me.
In the normal ranks there won't be jumpers/shimmiers.
In the bonus rank however there are already a few shimmier levels. The bonus rank is the wild card in here where everything goes and I am not very strict about things like skill restrictions. That's one of the reasons why it exists next to allowing my contest and collab levels to shine a bit.
Well, managed to get held back by another roadblock: Genocide 19.
So close to the halfway point of the final main rank of the pack! Anyway, I thought would be a good time to once again send some more replays. Here are replays for Genocide 15 through 19, as well as Genocide 1 and 7 resolved,
and my two best attempts at Genocide 19. I'm guessing no backroutes in this batch? If so, then it's just the second half that needs to be tended to if there are any after I'm able to get past Genocide 19 and I send them.
Regarding resolved levels:
Spoiler
Genocide 1 - QUOLA How's this now? Surely the falling bomber is the trick that's intended since there's no way to collect the pickups otherwise. Speaking of which, that nearly fails as the basher almost gets caught by the platformer brick but manages to fall through just in the nick of time. So really, same solution as the last time, just need to use the last lemming to bash and then bomb.
Genocide 7 - Braindead Mummys This should be intended. The change kind of made the solution obvious. The only difficult part was figuring out whether it was possible to get up the corridor where the bomber pickup is collected with just one stoner each. I do have a walker leftover, though. I'm guessing that was for turning a lemming at the very beginning around to stone? Then again, it was probably to turn a lemming around in the basher tunnel so as to make the timing easier. Also, if I had substituted the walker in place of a cloner at the beginning, that would mean I would have a cloner leftover instead, but then of course that would make the timing harder in the first basher tunnel.
edit: Actually, no, I wouldn't have a cloner leftover. All that it would do is help me meet the save requirement, and so I wouldn't have any skills leftover.
Now the new replays,
as well as an explanation of Genocide 19.
Spoiler
Genocide 15 - The Ancient Curse of Icho'tolot Nice puzzle and much easier than the previous level. That was a really good trick with the stoner at the end to get to the exit. Just realized that I could had done the digging and bashing to the left instead, but in any case my solution doesn't break the level in any way.
Genocide 16 - Regicide This was another great level where it took me a while to see where to place the stacker to contain the right crowd. Once that's determined, the rest of the level is easy.
Genocide 17 - Radience The last of the beast tileset levels in the pack, I believe? This one was another easy level, although I surprisingly got stumped here for a while due to thinking I was always a builder short. The solution actually came to me one night while I was in the restroom, where it occurred to me to bash from the right, block midstroke so the other climber/glider can turn around and mine. Another misspelling in the title, where the correct spelling is "radiance." Also, even though it's not in the level, I kind of hate the weasel trap due to it being difficult to spot and see, but that's a criticism of the tileset, not the level itself.
Genocide 18 - Speak Through the Flower Too easy. Given the skills, it's very easy to see that containing the crowd temporarily is done with a digger pit. The only difficult part is figuring out how to do so given the really high RR.
Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation Still unsolved after almost 3 days. It's really obvious what needs to be done here: The floater needs to get up the left side of the level, while the disarmer needs to get up on the steel platform in the air and the climber needs to get up the level on the right side. In one of my best attempts, I'm a platformer short, while the other one would be a solution if the floater was able to get up on the stack. In the latter, I'm a walker short instead. If I had interrupted the stacker with a walker, then I don't have a way to stop the climber that's mining in the middle of the level. I have tried to see where I could save a walker or a platformer instead, but I haven't been able to. I can possibly see how to save a walker that's used at the very beginning, but I'm convinced that the first walker must be where I used it, as through experimentation it's not possible to platform and get up without interrupting a miner midstroke. Or, rather, it is possible, but the miner going to the left doesn't go all the way through due to the steel block.
So, another example of a one screen level that's deceivingly tough, although the solution itself is not. Rather, the difficulty is the execution, especially on the left side. Of course, since I know you're an author who always saves successful replays (a great practice, I might add), the level has to be possible with the given skillset. The solution will probably come to me eventually, but for the time being, I'm stuck here.
edit: Just solved Genocide 19! Your vague hints were just enough to help me solve it. I appreciate you not giving away the solution in any way. :thumbsup: Well, the solution is indeed extremely difficult to spot. Turns out I pretty much had all the skills correctly placed except for the very first digger! I had to adjust the first digger position a couple of times before the platformer and stacker finally worked out. Lots of precise skill assignments in this level! I think ultimately there's still a couple of pixels leeway, but I'm not certain.
Only
4 5 new levels this time, but I'm getting closer to the end.
V 11.4 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 18 (added some steel)
- 5 17 (fixed spelling error)
Comments:
Genocide 1 - QUOLASpoiler
I let this pass as an alternative solution as it has the falling bomber and further fixes would be tedious. Let's say the near-fail situation comes from your alternative approach.
Totally missed that spelling error. :XD: But I found out it's "Radience" in polish. (at least according to google translate) :P
Genocide 18 - Speak Through the FlowerThat's a huge backroute you found there! Hope the steel eliminates it.
Genocide 19 - Arctic OscillationSpoiler
You are close, but still you are mixing up a few placements and as a result ulimately wasting a skill. Also at one point you are not using the terrain enough. Let's say there is still room for improvement. ;)
Also it's interesting to see how the roadblocks and easier levels are changing up from player to player.
Quote
Genocide 17 - Radience
Totally missed that spelling error. :XD: But I found out it's "Radience" in polish. (at least according to google translate) :P
Google translate detects "radience" as Polish because to it it looks like a word from that language. Since the translation comes back as the same, it's a strong indicator that it's not an actual word. You can pretty much do the same with any random word, where the translator will simply set the language according to what it looks like to it ;P
Quote
Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I kind of had the feeling I was being wasteful with my skills somewhere. All rightie, let's see if this is able to steer me towards the correct solution, then.
Quote
Also it's interesting to see how the roadblocks and easier levels are changing up from player to player.
Not surprising, since this once again ties back to what I said about difficulty of levels being subjective. Levels that others considered roadblocks for them I might have found easy, and similarly levels I considered roadblocks for me others might had found easy. I think it largely depends on how quickly one can "see" the solution and whether one is in the right mindset at the time. I know a lot of the time for me once I finally do realize the solution for a level I got stuck on I felt quite silly afterwards for having not seen it much earlier and wondered why it was even a roadblock for me in the first place. For Genocide 19, I'll very likely have that reaction once I do solve the level.
edit: And, Genocide 19 solved! Removed the best attempts at Genocide 19 file and added the successful replay to the zip file. Also, see my feedback for the level in the other reply
V 11.5 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 19 (erased some terrain)
That sadly was not the thing I wanted to see here and as a result lead to more precise assignments than I originally intended. :P
Also:
Please do not just edit post with new comments and replays! Always make a new post! I just saw this by pure accident. If you just edit things without a new post, there will be quite a risk that I miss it.
Quote
Please do not just edit post with new comments and replays! Always make a new post! I just saw this by pure accident. If you just edit things without a new post, there will be quite a risk that I miss it.
Thanks for pointing this out. I'll keep this in mind for future reference. I've been aware that the home page only shows the time when the original post was posted and it doesn't update to reflect when an edit was made, and thus that's a major drawback of the site. I guess I thought it looks silly to just make a new post that has only one replay to a level and hence it's better to just edit an existing post, but by making a new post, it draws attention to new replays better. Good point!
First half of Genocide done, plus a level. Only 3 new replays this time, plus Genocide 18 and 19 resolved.
Regarding resolved levels:
Spoiler
Genocide 18 - Speak Through The Flower Nice puzzle and solution! The previous version was definitely a really big backroute.
Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation What is it with me overcomplicating solutions when I prefer to make solutions as simple as possible? Guess I'm the master at this lol. Once more too many super precise assignments on my part, where the second digger and fencer had to be placed super precisely and hence I overcomplicated the solution again, but I don't think there's anything that can be done to block my solution and so this should be accepted as an alternative. This is an extremely difficult solution anyway, as I made use of the platformer physics of leaving a hole so that the climber can still get to the right side of the level. The solution also nearly fails with the stacker at the very bottom. One more pixel lower with the digger and the floater would not had been able to get up the wall, although he would still be able to get up the stack thanks to being stopped by the platformer bricks.
Now the new ones.
Spoiler
Genocide 20 - Links 2, Links 2, Links 2 3 4! It was fun seeing the solution in action, although all those poor lemmings that couldn't be saved :( I managed to save 242, 7 more than the requirement.
Genocide 21 - I Am the End of Fortune Oh gosh, you created a hard for kaywhyn level here: I'm not so good when it comes to using stackers to get up the level, especially since no walkers are provided to interrupt them! Due to this, I nearly made an exception for myself and was probably going to skip this level and come back to it later. I thought this was going to be the level that was finally going to end my run at completing your United pack fully. Indeed, I struggled greatly with this level for the last several days but I managed to solve it two days ago. Compared to the previous level, this is a huge difficulty spike. I guess that's fitting for the final level in the first half of the Genocide rank.
This level is really hard for many reasons: RR adjustment required so that only two lemmings slip past the first basher/stacker but the second lemming doesn't slip past the second stack, knowing how to release the crowd without destroying the wall and preventing them from getting up or proceeding further in the level, placing the second and third stacks in the right locations and releasing the second worker lemming at the right time so that it is nearly right on top of the first worker lemming when it arrives, bashing with the second lemming after the first one turns around and canceling it midstroke with a digger when the other one digs, placing and timing the builders to seal the gaps so that neither slip through the cracks, and finally stacking with the first worker after it turns around, bashing with the second worker after it gets on top of the stack, bashing and then interrupting it midstroke by stacking so that there's a hole on each side of the first stack so that the crowd so get up it from either side.
Initially, I kept trying to bash to the right first and then stack and then bash with the second worker after it turns around, but the stack will be too high for the lemmings to get up. I then fiddled with the timing of the builders to see if I could get it to work, but it doesn't, so I nearly gave up on the level. It's only when I finally decided to challenge this incorrect assumption and try it the way I described in the last 3 lines of the previous paragraph. I didn't even think this would work but I was very surprised when I saw that it does work.
That being said, I wonder how long it took you to get the design of the level right so that the timing of the two worker lemmings works out the way it does in the solution. Must had taken a while.
Needless to say, I beat the odds and beat a level in a style that I consider difficult for me. In other words, I persevered and didn't give up, even when I was so close to.
Genocide 22 - The Battle of Stirling I really like this one! Much easier than the previous level. I loved the bombing a basher in midstroke trick and the fencing through 3 builders to the ceiling of the level
With this, I don't think there's anymore backroutes in the first half of Genocide, but let's see what you say. If the first half took this long, I can't imagine the second half being any better for me. I know there's still some really difficult ones ahead in the remainder of the Genocide rank. 19 main levels left and then the Bonus rank. Getting really close to the end now! ;)
V 11.6 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 21 (moved and added some pick-ups, added a OWW)
5 18 is totally intended and 5 19 just a minor variation. :thumbsup:
5 20 has a bit of leeway in terms of lemmings you can use so that is perfectly fine. :)
5 22 is also 100% intended! :thumbsup:
But oh boy, you won the price for overcomplicating in 5 21!
That is totally not intended and the route I had in mind only uses minor timing and not such an ammount of RR madness as well - I need to stop this madness here and save you from yourself.
I took away all stackers at the start and also moved some other pick-ups away. Also a nice new OWW should also help.
This level has a clean solution, trust me. There are a few
MINOR timing points, but nowhere near as crazy as you did in your replay. ;)
QuoteThat being said, I wonder how long it took you to get the design of the level right so that the timing of the two worker lemmings works out the way it does in the solution. Must had taken a while.
Yeah, let's just say I didn't need to do that at all. ;P
Quote from: IchoTolot on August 02, 2020, 02:21:05 PM
But oh boy, you won the price for overcomplicating in 5 21!
Oh yea, oh yea, who's the man who's most deserving of the title of solution overcomplicator? :crylaugh: Only joking of course, since it's kind of something I'm not too proud of, but thank you for the "prize." ;P Also, since my solution is so much harder than the intended route, that's not really a backroute then, is it? Then again, what's considered or not considered one is subjective, although from what I understand, backroutes are generally much easier than the intended solution. Not always, but most of the time backroute solutions are generally a lot easier.
In any case, I'm simply content with passing levels in any way I can, whether I overcomplicated the solution or not. Like I mentioned previously, I prefer to keep my solutions simple when I'm solving, but it seems I have the bad habit of overcomplicating solutions when I didn't even intend to. :P As for the designing part, I think I would had left the level alone if I saw a really complicated replay solution such as this, but that's just my personal opinion if I made the level myself. As if I could make a complicated, large level like this. :eyeroll:
Quote
That is totally not intended and the route I had in mind only uses minor timing and not such an ammount of RR madness as well - I need to stop this madness here and save you from yourself.
Why, thank you. Good to know that you care for my sanity, particularly since I tend to be a grouchy 30-something these days. Well, I was kind of already a grouch long before I reached my 30s. Not when it comes to solving levels in lemmings, just life in general. That's why I always tell people to enjoy being young while it lasts, because you will see that once you reach my age and beyond, things change a lot. I definitely miss being young when I didn't stress out and worry as much and have as much to do as I do now with my super busy adult life.
Quote
I took away all stackers at the start and also moved some other pick-ups away. Also a nice new OWW should also help.
This level has a clean solution, trust me. There are a few MINOR timing points, but nowhere near as crazy as you did in your replay. ;)
All rightie, let's see if this is successful in preventing the execution madness seen in my replay when I do come back and resolve it. I will report back on this later. I think it's safe for me to come to the conclusion that
if I'm overcomplicating the solution to your levels, I'm very likely doing it wrong and self-inflicting unnecessary pixel precision on my part.
From the complexity side it isn't a backroute - complexity isn't the sole criterium though - it still avoids central tricks and I don't want people to get sucked into this extreme timing idea. That's the main intention of the fix. :)
Anyway, I think the solution is a tiny bit clearer now. ;)
A backroute is a solution that's more like bypassing the puzzle than engaging with it (which is of course subjective).
There can be unintended solutions that are desirable to fix for other reasons than being backroutes.
Quote from: IchoTolot on August 02, 2020, 08:17:44 PM
From the complexity side it isn't a backroute - complexity isn't the sole criterium though - it still avoids central tricks and I don't want people to get sucked into this extreme timing idea. That's the main intention of the fix. :)
Anyway, I think the solution is a tiny bit clearer now. ;)
Yes, I was just thinking about how it misses the central tricks that you wanted to enforce that resulted in you changing the level. At the same time, the execution madness in my replay could also be said to be completely unintentional. Now that there's way less options available at each stage, it does seem a bit clearer on what needs to go where. We shall see when I actually try it and I report back with more replays.
Quote from: Proxima on August 02, 2020, 08:23:40 PM
A backroute is a solution that's more like bypassing the puzzle than engaging with it (which is of course subjective).
There can be unintended solutions that are desirable to fix for other reasons than being backroutes.
I think regardless of what was intended I think it also depends on the person. If I had made the level instead, I personally would had left the level alone if someone ever sent a replay like mine just because it's so very difficult, regardless of whether the central tricks were missed or not. Nevertheless, it goes without saying that I still have a lot to learn from a level designing/fixing levels to block off certain solutions perspective. I most likely won't ever get into level designing myself, but I may still occasionally give it a go just to see what I can or can't do. I have stated that I'm not so good at creating puzzles, but the thing is I won't know if I truly am not so good at it unless I try myself, right? Good thing for the available tutorials to help in getting started with this.
Back with a bunch of replays this time. Here are my replay solutions for Genocide 23 through 31. I haven't taken a look at Genocide 21 and resolved it yet, so I'll probably send that one with my next batch of replays. In this batch, I didn't think any of these were very difficult, as I was able to conjure up the solutions somewhat quickly, but as usual the common problem I ran into while solving most of these levels was that I kept thinking I was a skill short and hence some of them took me a bit longer than it needed to.
Spoiler
Genocide 23 - IRON JUGGERNAUT I thought this one would be another really difficult level for me since it does require stackers to get up most of the level and I mentioned these are the styles of levels that are difficult for me. However, it turned out to not be so hard, and it's certainly much easier than Genocide 21. Interesting level where the entire level is steel and therefore the only destructible terrain is from the platformer, builder, and stacker. I managed to save 1 extra and have a platformer and 3 diggers leftover. Please tell me this is acceptable.
Genocide 24 - Delight and Angers Nice level! For a while, I kept thinking the solution needed a really long miner through builder from the platform near the exit to where the stoner builder trick is. Turns out that there isn't enough builders for that. Otherwise, I managed to piece together the solution somewhat quickly. Second level in the row where I have some skills leftover: a walker, glider, and 2 bashers. Please tell me this is acceptable too.
Genocide 25 - Scorcher VI: Global Meltdown Another great level! I was stuck on this level for almost 2 days, but this is yet another dumb dumb for me, as the part that had me stuck the longest was the very end, as I kept thinking I was a constructive skill short. Turns out I used the third blocker incorrectly, where I kept using it inside the fencer tunnel. After a while, I then remember lemmings still being able to go through a blocker from one side but not through the other side on a steep enough slope. Neolemmix Tutorial Pack to the rescue again. The only tricky thing is making sure no lemmings were near the swimmer, which the fencer needs to be assigned to. Not sure if the RR adjustment at the beginning was necessary.
Genocide 26 - Laughs of Insanity I didn't think this level was hard. Solving time was about 30 minutes. I probably self-inflicted unnecessary pixel precision on my part with the splatform for the entrance trapped by the OWW, as well as the second basher at the bottom. The releasing a blocker on a builder staircase with a fencer trick returns after being absent for a really long time (last time was at the very end of Neutrality, I believe). I didn't use the bottom right of the level, but I'm hoping this is ok?
Genocide 27 - Planter's Punch This one wasn't too hard either. I say the part that took me the longest to figure out was the beginning of building up to where the frog trap was. Also just making sure that I wasn't running short on constructive skills. Solving time was probably 45 minutes to an hour.
Genocide 28 - It's All About the Pentiums Armani said this level was hard, but surprisingly this level wasn't too hard for me. I do have a builder leftover, though, so backroute?
Genocide 29 - The Next Evolution of Lem Nice and somewhat easy level! I kept running into some skill shortages near the end a lot, but that's because I kept placing one of the platformers wrong. This solution nearly fails with making a second hole in the wall with a digger and platforming and digging to cut it short, so once again I appeared to have made it more difficult for myself than was necessary.
Genocide 30 - Trump This Tower Looks pretty daunting, but it wasn't too bad. I most likely made the solution way too hard on myself, as this is a timing challenge solution and it could had easily failed had the timing for the second blocker not worked out and I had to waste more walkers. Not to mention the miner, first blocker, second blocker, and first digger all had to be placed precisely. This is probably the most extreme precision solution, as the miner had to be placed very precisely and still be able to be stopped by the steel after mining through the builder staircase. Ugh, me and my self-inflicted precision. I have a platformer leftover, but I'm guessing this is fine?
Genocide 31 - Sanctuary in Dying Light Armani also said this level was hard for him, but I didn't think it was. I'm not sure if this is intended, but the most frustrating part for me was making that splatform for the crowd at the bottom of the level. Several times, the fall was deadly by one pixel. So, it looks like the two bombers have to be placed very precisely, as well as the builder at the bottom. I think one of the bombers for a glider to build and that builder in the bomber hole were also very precise. Heck, I did almost the entire level with super pixel precision.
Save for Genocide 21 which I still need to resolve, finally in the home stretch. 10 main levels left in the pack! Also, besides the aforementioned level, the levels in the 20s weren't too difficult. Most likely this will change with the levels in the 30s, as I know there's still some really difficult ones ahead. Nevertheless, I'm super stoked that I'm near the very end of the main pack. I must say, the fact that I've been on a roll in solving several levels the last few days kind of brought back and boosted my confidence in getting through the rest of the pack, despite the constant fears I previously kept having about the Genocide rank being too hard for me to handle. ;)
V 11.7 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 24 (added a trap)
- 5 26 (6 builders are now a pick-up skill)
- 5 28 (added some steel)
- 5 30 (added 2 OWWs)
- 5 31 (added some terrain)
New levels:
- 6 15
- 6 18
- 6 22
Comments:
A lot of backroutes this time and the most glaring one is 5 28 by far. I think that's the main reason you passed some major roadblock levels quite easily.
- 5 23 is a totally acceptable solution.
- 5 24 is not a total backroute but it's off far enough that a fix is needed.
- 5 25 is intended.
- 5 26 is very far off and does not even use all areas of the level.
- 5 27 is an acceptable alternative.
- 5 28 I would even consider one of the biggest backroutes yet. It totally missed all intended tricks.
- 5 29 is again an acceptable one.
- 5 30 is too far off the intended route so a fix is needed.
- 5 31 totally bypasses central tricks again.
QuoteAlso, besides the aforementioned level, the levels in the 20s weren't too difficult.
Yeah, I have a feeling this statement will not stand after all the fixes are working. Especially for 5 28 and maybe 5 31. ;)
Hi Icho, I redownloaded your link on page one that says 11.7. but those levels listed that you changed for Kaywhyn's replays still doesn't show changes in the levels and Kaywhyn's replays still work. Are you sure you put the new version in the link?
I always like to have the newest version as I want to have any backroutes that you fixed
Confirmed. Nothing has changed (no orange checkmarks next to the levels that you said have changed), yet the OP says that it was last modified today at 3:49AM (my time zone). Looks to be that you didn't upload the right version.
Quote from: IchoTolot on August 08, 2020, 10:58:40 AM
V 11.7 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 24 (added a trap)
- 5 26 (6 builders are now a pick-up skill)
- 5 28 (added some steel)
- 5 30 (added 2 OWWs)
- 5 31 (added some terrain)
Interesting. All the even-numbered levels, plus 5 31, in this batch were backroutes.
I am a bidg dummy----I've packed the new zip file, but I think actually uploading it to my dropbox would be advantageous! :XD:
It should be fixed now! :)
Yes, got the changes to the affected levels now. Thanks for being prompt with it. Back to resolving levels and solving the rest of the pack I go.
hi Icho, oh and you changed bonus level 15,18,22. So now i'm missing those replays. If you want can p.m those 3 levels so I have your update bonus levels replays.
Yes and your 11.7 is now there, und Vielen Dank
I have officially completed 200/205 United levels! :) Thus, I'm in the home stretch and down to the final 5 levels of Genocide. With some logic, you can deduce that I'm currently on Genocide 37
Gate to the Inner Sanctum, supposedly the hardest level in the entire pack. I haven't attempted it enough for the level to really make me sweat yet, but with the few attempts I have had at it, I know that the biggest problem is conserving builders as much as possible.
To celebrate this achievement, bunch of replays incoming for your viewing pleasure and to see if the solutions are intended or not. Here are Genocide 32 through 36, as well as Genocide 24, 26, 28, 30, and 31 resolved, and my very best attempt at the new version of Genocide 21, so I haven't been able to resolve it yet after spending a few hours with it tonight.
Regarding resolved levels, as well as an explanation for Genocide 21, these all seem intended now or at least acceptable except for Genocide 28 and 31.
Spoiler
Genocide 21 - I am the End of Fortune! Unless you're supposed to use a stacker for the very end to reach the exit, I haven't been able to work that part out yet. Now, I have thought about conserving a digger for the part after using my builders, but the problem I would run into is that the crowd would come way too soon while the long basher tunnel is in progress. Thus, I would be forced to use another basher and then I have no way to stop a digger after he bashes part of the final stack away. My previous solution in the previous version of the level uses a builder for the very end instead, but in this new version it seems that it's not possible to conserve the builder used at the very beginning. In any case, I have kept on checking to see if I could save any skills anywhere else in the level, and I think I've come to the conclusion that I cannot. Still, I wonder if I'm really close. I was dreading having to play the level again anyway after the previous version managed to give me a lot of problems.
Genocide 24 - Delight and Angers The only part I don't think was intended was bashing into steel to turn around. Otherwise, this seems either intended or at least acceptable now.
Genocide 26 - Laughs of Insanity This was a very quick resolve. I do have a builder leftover, which I'm guessing is to make releasing the blocker with a fencer much easier, but in any case it at least doesn't break the level in any way.
Genocide 28 - It's All About Pentiums! I have a feeling this isn't intended despite the fact that I use all skills this time instead of having a builder leftover like last time.
Genocide 30 - Trump This Tower! I think I might had made some parts more difficult than was necessary, but this seems intended or at least acceptable now. I have a blocker leftover.
Genocide 31 - Sanctuary in Dying Light Same as Genocide 28. It's practically the same solution as last time, except I only used 1 basher for the very start and hence I have a basher leftover.
Now the new replays, Genocide 32 through 36.
Spoiler
Genocide 32 - To New Shores of Sadness I thought this one was easy. The solution came to me in about half an hour. I must say, I absolutely love the solution! The only tricky part is timing releasing the blocker with a walker so that the second miner meets the builder at just the right time.
Genocide 33 - Architect of Your Despair Just like the previous level, only the solution came to me much faster. Solving time was about 10 minutes. Nice level here as well, with the main challenge figuring out what the RR needs to be in order to minimize losses to the traps.
Genocide 34 - Salvation Code Very easy level. The trick of interrupting a builder with a basher so that he can bridge the gap without turning around returns. The basher assignment at the top so that the glider makes it across is very precise, as there's only one position that works, and that is the lemming needs to bash when he is directly up against and touching the wall.
Genocide 35 - Kiwi Knight's Keep Ok, I was a complete dumb dumb on this level, as this level managed to stump me for a day. That's because, for a long time, I couldn't figure out where the last platformer skill needed to go. I was able to place all the other skills very easily. Also, I thought I needed to avoid the glider from turning around after platforming across the spikes because then he would die in the spikes far below and there was no rescuing him if it happened. Hence, I kept thinking I had to waste a walker to prevent that. However, once I figured out that it needed to go just below the platform that needs to be mined, then it was easy from there. Despite stumping me for a day, nice level.
Genocide 36 - Earth Below Us,... Drifting Away Level looks daunting, but it's not a really hard level. The most difficult part is just knowing how to get up the level since only platformers are provided, which don't add height. The additional challenge is not wasting any of your skills. At one point or another, I kept running into platformer, miner, and bomber shortages. Hence, after a while it was really just fiddling with the skills until I finally was able to minimize the amount of skills needed in each area and be efficient in skill usage. The area where I interrupted a miner with a walker and platformed, as well as bombing three times in the vicinity all seems very fiddly and doesn't seem intended. Also the bomber in the top right was very precise. In the end, I have a floater and a platformer leftover.
Man, 5 main levels remaining, plus any that I might need to resolve depending on your feedback. To think I wouldn't ever get to this point or even this far in the pack.
V 11.8 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 28 (added some steel)
Comments:Genocide 21 - I am the End of Fortune!Spoiler
You are still missing the central trick I intended in this level. It would reduce fiddlyness by a large margin and precision as well. The level is designed in a way that other methods should become a few skills short if not using the trick.
Maybe start here if you wish a little hint:
Spoiler
but in this new version it seems that it's not possible to conserve the builder used at the very beginning. -- start doubting your statement and see if you can find a cleaner and less fiddly way.
That's totally accepted territory now!
Genocide 26 - Laughs of InsanityYour assumption is totally correct. :)
Genocide 28 - It's All About Pentiums!Closer, but still far away. I had the fix already implemented last time, but decided it was overkill and removed it. Let's see if it stops your backrouting now. ;P
Genocide 30 - Trump This Tower!Totally acceptable!
Genocide 31 - Sanctuary in Dying LightYeah, you found a way to save a basher and I will accept that. The intended trick is present now.
32-35 are all totally intended! :thumbsup:
Genocide 36 - Earth Below Us,... Drifting AwayThis one is intended to have many viable solutions - as long as you don't have too heavy shortcuts. Therefore fiddlyness and other factors vary as well.
So that leaves 5 more levels + resolves + bonus rank remaining. ;)
Just posting to confirm/verify that I have updated to the newest version of the pack and that I visually see the change in Genocide 28 ;) Glad to hear there's only one backroute this time out of the 10 that I was able to solve/resolve and that we're getting very close to a backroute free Genocide rank ;P It's been an honor helping you eliminate them in all of the pack. :)
Quote
Genocide 21 - I am the End of Fortune!
Spoiler
You are still missing the central trick I intended in this level. It would reduce fiddlyness by a large margin and precision as well. The level is designed in a way that other methods should become a few skills short if not using the trick.
Maybe start here if you wish a little hint:
Spoiler
but in this new version it seems that it's not possible to conserve the builder used at the very beginning. -- start doubting your statement and see if you can find a cleaner and less fiddly way.
I had a feeling I was still very far off. All rightie, let's see if this will steer me better towards a working solution. I can do this... I hope! :D
And, the Genocide rank has fallen! Took me much longer than I thought it would, but all 205 main levels completed. Since today is your 29th birthday (at least here in the west coast USA it is, but in your hometown it's already Monday), my present for you is this: The remaining Genocide replays, 37-41. 38-41 are in the same rar file, while I have attached two solutions for Genocide 37 as separate files. Compared to the first half, the second half of Genocide wasn't too bad, although it certainly slowed my progress considerably. Truthfully, except for Genocide 40 (see level feedback), I thought the final 5 levels of the rank were all difficult.
I still need to go back and resolve Genocide 21 and 28, but I have officially completed all the Genocide levels at least once, and I wanted to at least see and solve the remaining levels of the pack, as I was very close to the end. Of course, I also know you're on vacation in your hometown, so you probably won't be able to view them until you return from vacation. No rush! Just enjoy your little vacay and birthday.
Regarding Genocide 21 and 28:
Spoiler
Genocide 21 - I Am the End of Fortune Ever since I completed Genocide 37, I haven't made more serious attempts at it yet, but hopefully when I do come back to it I'll be able to solve it.
Genocide 28 - It's All About the Pentiums! I have taken several swings at this, and now it seems way too hard. I think I know the gist of it, but I'll come back to this after I solve the Bonus rank.
Now the new replays.
Spoiler
Genocide 37 - Gate to the Inner Sanctum For what's supposedly the hardest level in the entire pack, I didn't think it was THAT hard. Yes, it took me a while and might had taken me a week and half, but that's only because I was constantly on and off with playing lemmings. The extremely hot weather here in California didn't motivate me much to play during that time. In all, solving time was about 1.5-2 hours. Compared to other levels in the pack, I thought this one wasn't so bad. Except for Genocide 40, I thought the levels after this one were harder. Then again, I might had backrouted the level. It seems the key to this level is making sure to allocate the athlete skills carefully instead of trying to assign them all to the same lemming and therefore making multiple triathletes.
I thought the hardest part was getting to the buttons on the bottom platforms. It took me a while to figure out the best way to get to them all. For a really long time, at the start, I thought I had to prevent any lemmings at the bottom from slipping past to fall into the water, but once I tried other things to see if I could save some skills, it was more productive. Also, once I realize I could take the ceiling route, it was a near solve, but there was still a few things to figure out. I don't know if taking the ceiling is intended, though. I don't know if there is a better way to get the swimmer(s) back on land other than the very fiddly mining cancelling I did on the starting platform at the bottom.
I have attached two solutions, both of which have leftover skills. The first one is where I have a leftover basher, but I can swap the miner at the platform above the exit with it and I'll have a miner leftover instead. For the second, even though the second one is a variation of the first solution where I bash with the triathlete instead, the second one seems to be a much worse backroute, since I have a climber, swimmer, and a basher leftover. Again, I can swap the miner with the basher and have a miner leftover instead.
Genocide 38 - Legacy of Lemlab I wasn't too much of a fan of this one since there's a lot of fiddlyness with digger cancelling. Not only is this hard, but figuring out whether it was even possible to reach the exit through the outside was difficult as well. Due to these things, I thought this was what made the level harder than the previous one. Then again, the level is also somewhat easier due to the very limited skill set and how practically the only skills that are useful here are the diggers and builders. I don't know if it's necessary to fiddle with the RR at the beginning. Also, I don't know if building outside on the right side is intended. Then again, I don't think the normal solution of going through the inner portion is possible, since you'll always be a builder short. I did use some floaters but none of the swimmers. I'm guessing these leftover skills I have is acceptable?
Genocide 39 - Rise of the Harkonnen Ok, this was a fine level that managed to stump me good for an entire day. There were some things I managed to figure out very quickly, but the hardest part for me was getting up in the central area. I thought a stacker, miner, and basher would be enough to get up, but alas it's not. However, once I swapped out a walker with a stacker for the platforming part on the left side, I think it was a bit easier to figure out how to get up. Even then, it was still tricky, and some precision is required. Other than the difficulty of carving a path upward, the key here appears to be that you must do certain things first before you can build the crowd up. In particular, first mining through the Harkonnen, then collecting the pickup skills. Otherwise, the level isn't possible. Even when I did figure out the order, I still struggled a lot with the level.
Genocide 40 - Photo Finish Ok, unless this is intended, this seems like a huge backroute, considering I don't use any climbers or floaters. I did have another solution of getting the lemmings down the left side that works, but due to miscalculating on my part, the solution leaves me with a lemming short and therefore doesn't work. Other than that, I don't know any other solution that would work.
Genocide 41 - The Epitome Yea, for the rank finisher and final level of the main pack, I thought this wasn't too hard, even though this one took me about a day to solve. Thus, it remains true that out of all the rank finishers of the pack, Neutrality 41 stumped me the longest. Heck, compared to the final level of Reunion, I think Nightmare 30 is much harder.
Anyway, even before I started my attempts, there were several things I was able to quickly figure out in my mind. The hardest parts for me were making a landing platform for the top right crowd in the bottom right area and being able to get him to safety without losing him afterwards, as well as building up to the middle area on the bottom left area. The other parts were easier to figure out, although as was the case with many levels in the pack, the main problem I had was running into skill shortages. In particular, I was trying to make sure that I had enough diggers and blockers for the most important parts. In some senses conserving bashers as well, as even though you are provided a lot of them they surprisingly run out quickly and all are used in the solution. Even after finally finding a solution and solving the level, I still ended up with a climber and 2 gliders leftover, so ultimately a backroute? I'm not sure which parts in my solution might be unintended, though. Also, awesome congratulations message at the very end! :) And oh dang, 8 minutes exactly.
Finally, it doesn't relate to the level solving process in any way, but the point I want to mention is that I absolutely love your music track choice for this level. I definitely prefer this track over the one that plays for Neutrality 41 and War 41. I love how this track has a much calmer, softer tune that has a "final feeling" quite appropriate for the last main level of the pack. Well done! :thumbsup: In contrast, the track for the other two levels is really loud and can be quite atrocious. I get that it's supposed to invoke an intensive feeling due to being rank finishers, but the track doesn't really help motivate one to solve them in any way.
Overall, excellent job with the pack, Icho! Upon completing the final level of the main pack, I immediately felt a huge sense of relief, accomplishment, and satisfaction. Reflecting back, I'm seriously still in huge disbelief that I made it to the very end. To think I initially was fearful of the Genocide rank when I started the rank almost two months ago and thought the pack would eventually beat me at some point, I persevered and made it to the very end. Now at least I don't have to worry about the main pack being too hard for me to finish. Yes, it is one of the most difficult packs I have ever played, but United is now officially the largest pack I have ever completed, even with the Bonus rank untouched. Prior to this, the largest pack I have completed was Strato's Lemmicks at 170 levels, but before this, interestingly enough, your Reunion pack was the largest I completed at 150 levels. Well, technically it's supposed to be Revenge of the Lemmings, but because I haven't completed it yet (I'm currently stuck at Bonus 25, and have been for 3 years!), I can't say that it's the largest pack I have finished. So, the title of biggest pack I have completed goes to United instead.
Enjoy your birthday present whenever you get around to viewing the replays. In the meantime, I will be taking on the Bonus rank and once that is done, I will likely go back and resolve Genocide 21 and 28. Or, which I think is more likely, once I finish the Bonus rank I will send all of my replays for the pack, just to see how many levels need to be resolved in addition to Genocide 21 and 28.
Congrats on finishing United, hopefully there won't be many(if any) updated versions. Now when you get done with the bonus rank, you can go back to Genocide 21 and 28 and try to solve.
I really want Icho to have a final version of United so I can say this is another pack that I have all the replays for (Not only Icho's but other ones too)
And yes I wished Icho a happy birthday last night about 10pm our time so when he responded it was his birthday. He said he had a couple of beers with his friends and a nice BBQ.
Germany is famous for Oktoberfest(beer Fest and singing and dancing). Fortunatly I got to experience Oktoberfest in Munich in 2011. Now I just need to experience the German Christmas
markets(not sure when due to Corona)
Anyways I always keep on eye out for your United replays and I keep yours too once Icho approves them. Once he approves your replay of a level, that's when I turn it green.
1/3 of the bonus rank completed already! 11 levels completed all in about 3 hours too! ;) With what I've seen so far, it's been a huge relief playing much easier levels again after all the hair pulling, mind-bending difficult Genocide levels. So, with how I already have only 22 levels in the rank left, it appears that I might finish the rank in about a day or two.
Quote
Congrats on finishing United,
Hey eric, thank you for your congratulations. It might had taken me a really long time (almost a year, as a matter of fact!), but I did it. Truthfully, I'm still shocked I even managed to complete the pack. All without peaking at hints or replays before I've solved them on my own, too! That I managed to beat one of the most difficult level packs there is in existence, it's almost too good to be true. I seriously thought United would eventually become too hard for me and beat me at some point along the way, but I managed to make it through to the end. There's another pack I'm going to try and go back to complete as well, and that is Nepsterlems (currently on the 4th rank of 6). It is also a very hard pack, probably not quite as up there with United, but it's still really hard. Of course, you're more than welcome to get my replays for this pack when I get around to it.
Quote
Now when you get done with the bonus rank, you can go back to Genocide 21 and 28 and try to solve.
Let's just say that I'm quite burned out with the extremely hair-pulling and mind bending difficult Genocide levels for the time being and that as a reward for beating the main part of United I'm playing through the Bonus rank as a way to de-stress and recollect myself.
Quote
Anyways I always keep on eye out for your United replays and I keep yours too once Icho approves them. Once he approves your replay of a level, that's when I turn it green.
Yes, you're more than welcome to collect my replays for any of the packs I play. Just look out for my feedback posts on the level pack topics. Perhaps while that is going on, I will occasionally help you with solving levels and providing you replays you need for any Superlemmini conversion projects you might be doing.
Hey eric, I appreciate the time you took to make a separate NL player. Unfortunately, it's all for naught. I just checked the Bonus rank in the current United version, and it turns out that the 3 levels in your attachment are already in the pack. This is what Icho's post meant.
Quote
V 11.7 is out!
New levels:
- 6 15
- 6 18
- 6 22
Thus, it appears that it was a misunderstanding. His update simply means that 3 more levels got added to the Bonus rank in addition to the ones that were already in there, not replace 3 of the levels in the rank. That's why there's now 33 levels in the rank, compared to the last time, when there was 30. The three levels moved down by at least 1 position as a result. They didn't get replaced. Moreover, this also means that my searching around the forums for them won't be necessary. Good thing, because I haven't done any searching around for them, and I won't have to anyway.
Yeah your right, I see that now, It's just Icho made it sound like he doesn't have those anymore. He should have said "added on levels" instead of "replaced levels". But this is better then because now it can just be one neolemmix player. I just had to add Icho's 3 new replays for the new ones into his PM'd replays. He also PM'd me the 3 new ones. So now I have all 33 bonus replays in one bonus folder..
Also Thanks for letting me know this, I probably would have never known it (at least till I saw you post 3 old level replays). Then I would have caught on.
EDIT: I removed the 3 level bonus neolemmix player post as it isn't needed anymore.
V 11.9 is out!Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 5 37 (added a OWW)
- 5 40 (added a OWW)
First of, if I'm removing/replacing levels I will specifically state it. "New Levels" in my terms always means that there are new levels put in these positions and any old levels are pushed a position ahead.
Comments:Genocide 28 - It's All About the Pentiums!: Nice to see the level having it's intended efeect now. ;)
Genocide 37 - Gate to the Inner SanctumSpoiler
Let's just say you made a move I did not forsee at the start resulting in a leftover builder which lead to more skill savings. Let's see how this new version hold up - you were not completely off though.
Spoiler
The route is intended, although there are easier variations.
This is a big surprise, as the other person blasting through it did not have many problems here as I recall.
Genocide 40 - Photo FinishYep, that's totally broken. :P
Genocide 41 - The EpitomeSpoiler
This on the other hand was way more difficult for the other person beating it. It's still not the hardest level in the pack by quite a bit.
Although I highly oppose the opinion that this is easier than Nightmare 30: Think about what you learned on your journey between beating Nightmare 30 and Genocide 41. You are on a completely different level now and all the tricks you learned served you well here.
:thumbsup:
When you are through with everything + resolvings: I will request one final replay collection from you that should survive a mass replay check. If that's successful then you can claim your prize. ;)
Glad to see the birthday person enjoyed his present. Nice to see that only 4 resolves are needed left in Genocide: 21, 28, 37, and 40. Guess the next person who is brave enough to take on this pack who might struggle greatly can thank me for making many of the levels considerably harder as a result of backroutes being patched up :P
Quote from: IchoTolot on September 01, 2020, 04:17:25 PM
First of, if I'm removing/replacing levels I will specifically state it. "New Levels" in my terms always means that there are new levels put in these positions and any old levels are pushed a position ahead.
Yea, I figured that the levels in the Bonus rank were only shifted in their positions long before eric mistakenly thought 3 levels were missing. While I'm on the subject of the Bonus rank, I got to say I'm absolutely loving pretty much all the levels I've seen so far. Even though I have stated that I won't be making levels or level packs, I must say, in many ways the levels in the Bonus rank are really inspiring me to give level creation a try, so I might end up getting at least an entry in for the LDC #21 ;). Still a month left before the creation phase closes. Even if I miss the cutoff, for sure I will do the next LDC. Just thought I throw it out there that I will indeed give it a try. Even if my level(s) don't make it that far in the voting, I figured I have nothing to lose and as long as I have fun it's all good. Plus, it's all a learning process, so I might take some valuable lessons with me.
I'm just slightly past the halfway point of the rank as of last night. Once I'm done with the rank, I will go back and try to resolve the Genocide levels. Definitely getting harder again, but nowhere near as difficult as the main levels of the pack.
Quote
Comments:
Genocide 41 - The Epitome
Spoiler
This on the other hand was way more difficult for the other person beating it. It's still not the hardest level in the pack by quite a bit.
Although I highly oppose the opinion that this is easier than Nightmare 30
I think this is where there is bias in my claim of Nightmare 30 being
easier harder than Genocide 41. IMO, I always feel that levels that only use the classic 8 skills are considerably easier than those that don't. Indeed, that has what led me to say that Reunion is overall easier than United, and I think that's where we're in agreement. I guess a better way for me to state the difficulty of the final levels would be how they "felt." For me, Nightmare 30 did in a way feel harder than Genocide 41, perhaps because it wasn't as obvious where the skills needed to be used. Not to mention that I first beat Nightmare 30 on Lemmini, where there was a somewhat tight time limit as well, but at the same time I did a lot of multitasking on it, and so time wasn't an issue. Also it's an unpatched version, so that kind of made it easier, with how I managed to glitch my way through it. The NL version should be much harder, but it's going to remain untouched for a while, since I don't have plans to take on Reunion for NL for a long time, having already beaten it for Lemmini a few years back.
Then again, the only skill that is exclusive to NL in Genocide 41 is the glider and it can just be thought of as a floater variant in terms of the direction of gliding and how it interacts with updrafts. In contrast, I didn't have to multitask in Genocide 41, and it does in a way overall feel easier just because there's only 6 skills provided instead of 8. Also, the only destructive skills you have are diggers and mostly bashers and it's much more obvious where the skills go. Also, other than the bottom areas being the most difficult parts, I did state that I didn't think Genocide 41 was that difficult, so I'm in agreement that it's not the hardest level in the pack by a long shot. There are much harder levels, including the current version of Genocide 28 and 37, but the latter isn't too difficult TBT.
Quote
Congratulations on keeping on and coming this far! :thumbsup:
When you are through with everything + resolvings: I will request one final replay collection from you that should survive a mass replay check. If that's successful then you can claim your prize. ;)
Thanks a bunch, Icho! :) Of course, I will have to abide by your terms before getting the prize, and that includes sending replays of all levels, including the Bonus rank. You have my word that I will do my part. In the same way that I assure you that in my quest to complete the pack, I have solved every level in United without looking up replays. Again, I'm one of those people who prefers the satisfaction of solving and figuring out levels on my own. Only once that happens, then I view replays as a way for me to compare solutions.
It has now officially been a year since I first took on United. Coincidentally, I've reached the very final level of the pack, meaning I'm on the the last level of the Bonus rank, several hours ago. 205 main levels, plus 33 bonus levels, and so I'm on the 238th and final level of the pack. Just in time to mark the day I started United exactly a year ago today. I wonder how that happened? At the same time, I wouldn't be anywhere near this far right now if I wasn't out of work due to the pandemic. If I had worked the last several months, I probably would only be in the War rank around this time
So far, it's still a no solve, but I think I have an idea of what needs to happen. I just don't know if the trick required is one I've used and seen before. As a matter of fact, I have a strong suspicion that I used it on the old version of Genocide 21. The hardest part, of course, is the very start. In any case, since the skillset is really small, it probably won't take long to hit upon the trick if it's one I haven't seen yet. Technically, I still have about 21 hours to solve the level before it's officially a year. According to the time stamp of my Pacifism 1 replay, it's stamped around 9:30PM, and it's 1:35AM here where I am. Needless to say, I started playing United on this very day last year, September 7, 2019, and now today is September 7, 2020.
When I do manage to solve Bonus 33, the next time I will post my feedback on the rank. Then, all that's left for me to do is go back and resolve the new versions of 4 levels in the Genocide rank. Once I succeed in doing that, then I'll officially be done and can send my entire United replay collection, including the Bonus rank. Given that it's only 4 levels I need to resolve, it probably won't take too long, but I suspect that Genocide 21 and Genocide 28 will take the longest, since they now seem to be the most difficult for me. However, that remains to be seen.
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 07, 2020, 08:45:56 AM
It has now officially been a year since I first took on United. Coincidentally, I've reached the very final level of the pack, meaning I'm on the the last level of the Bonus rank, several hours ago. 205 main levels, plus 33 bonus levels, and so I'm on the 238th and final level of the pack. Just in time to mark the day I started United exactly a year ago today. I wonder how that happened? At the same time, I wouldn't be anywhere near this far right now if I wasn't out of work due to the pandemic. If I had worked the last several months, I probably would only be in the War rank around this time
So far, it's still a no solve, but I think I have an idea of what needs to happen. I just don't know if the trick required is one I've used and seen before. As a matter of fact, I have a strong suspicion that I used it on the old version of Genocide 21. The hardest part, of course, is the very start. In any case, since the skillset is really small, it probably won't take long to hit upon the trick if it's one I haven't seen yet. Technically, I still have about 21 hours to solve the level before it's officially a year. According to the time stamp of my Pacifism 1 replay, it's stamped around 9:30PM, and it's 1:35AM here where I am. Needless to say, I started playing United on this very day last year, September 7, 2019, and now today is September 7, 2020.
When I do manage to solve Bonus 33, the next time I will post my feedback on the rank. Then, all that's left for me to do is go back and resolve the new versions of 4 levels in the Genocide rank. Once I succeed in doing that, then I'll officially be done and can send my entire United replay collection, including the Bonus rank. Given that it's only 4 levels I need to resolve, it probably won't take too long, but I suspect that Genocide 21 and Genocide 28 will take the longest, since they now seem to be the most difficult for me. However, that remains to be seen.
Well, happy solving anniversary! :birthday: :XD:
Good luck on the last stretch. :thumbsup:
Bonus 33 has a certain trick in it that josh has used to backroute Genocide 21 in the past. It's clear but precise. Let's see if you can figure it out. ;P
And, Bonus 33 solved! Took me a lot longer than I thought it would, but I finally did it. Thus, the Bonus rank is finally all solved and therefore I finally have completed all of United! :) My thoughts on the Bonus rank:
Overall, for the most part I really loved many of these levels. The levels were quite impressive and a huge relief from all the mind-blowing difficult levels from the earlier ranks and not as stressful. At least for the first third they were like that, as I breezed through the first 11 levels with little to no problems. In that batch,
Overarmed and Underarmed was probably my most favorite in terms of what's required in the solution. In particular,
Spoiler
Using a fencer to release a blocker, along with using a builder staircase for a fencer to continue, was pretty clever. Also, using a glider to bomb into the wall, another to get into the hole and bash, and finally a third one to get in the hole and turn around to mine to get to the bottom half to set up the fencer tricks.
Bonus 3 -
Burning Ships looks quite decent, but it is agonizingly slow, to the point that fast forward isn't that much faster at all. However, thanks for making the level really easy and quite open-ended due to the large skillset. Also,
Spoiler
One can easily think that the black areas are empty but turns out to be solid. I had to turn on CPM to make sure of this
Starting with Bonus 12, the difficulty started picking up considerably and stayed quite difficult for the rest of the rank. Bonus 12 -
2 Minutes Before the Mall Opens was the first level to give me problems. In the end, after I solved the level, I viewed your replay on Youtube, and it turns out that my solution is considerably more difficult to execute, as there's a lot of pixel precision in my solution AND I don't even go through the bottom left to disarm the traps. You'll see what I mean when I send my entire United replay collection after I go back and resolve the new versions of the 4 Genocide levels first.
The rest of the rank from Bonus 12 onwards managed to give me problems in some way. In the remaining batch, Bonus 13 -
The Drunken Knights of Clausthal and Bonus 19 -
Not a Bitter Timing Effort were the easiest ones for me. Also in the batch, Bonus 17 -
Xeno Menace was probably my most favorite level. I thought the entire solution is quite clever. In particular,
Spoiler
Using a shimmier to get past a stack was quite ingenious. The time limit is also very tight, but as you know I personally don't mind time limits in the game. The most difficult part for me was the starting area, in particular how to contain the crowd temporarily. In my first several attempts, for a long time I thought I needed to use a blocker along with a stacker or even just a blocker. I honestly felt extremely satisfied beating the tight clock on this level, especially with the awesome tricks needed in the solution.
I remember Bonus 24 -
T=0K from Wafflem's pack, and I was considering to use my replay for it rather than play through it again, but I decided to rise to the challenge and find an alternative solution. So, I now have two different replays for the level, one for Old Formats NL and one for the most current New Formats NL.
Surprisingly, Bonus 14 -
Welcome to the Spider Dance gave me problems, but that's because
Spoiler
I failed to spot the one place to put a blocker that can direct the crowd to the right side of the bottom half for a really long time
While Bonus 20 -
Lemmings in Unison looks very daunting and turns out to not be really difficult, I couldn't formulate the solution correctly in my thought process. Hence I resorted to
Spoiler
The trick of bashing and then making a lemming that gets hoisted in midair become a blocker so that it gets released AND turns the basher around at the same time. As a result, this made the level that much harder for me in that I needed to make sure to release the glider and floater at the right times. Yet another challenge solution from me, you might say, and that I made things more complicated than they needed to be. When I viewed your solution to the level, it turns out I did think about using the huge water pond but it never occurred to me to bash from the right instead of the left with the correct lemming.
Bonus 25 -
Spires of Mire and all the levels after were all hard in their own way. Bonus 25 is visually quite appealing. However, this level also surprisingly gave me a lot of problems. For a long time, I kept thinking
Spoiler
I needed to have a basher for the end part to release a blocker after mining down to the right so the crowd can exit.
Sorry to say it, but I wasn't too much of a fan of Bonus 26 -
Soilworker's Song of the Damned. It was just too fiddly for my taste and all the nuances of the many gaps present in the level. Still, I thought it was pretty cool you made a level out of your forum avatar. At the same time, I was quite amazed at how many different solutions there are for this level. Mine turns out to be very different from all the other solutions you showcased on Youtube, so I guess consider my solution a 5th one.
Spoiler
The thing that totally caught me by surprise is how the fencer I cancelled at the very top works, but since I was super annoyed already with how I thought I had a working solution from so many close attempts, at that point I was like "I finally solved it, and it works, so whatever." Mine is probably the most difficult solution to come up with. The others I have seen are so much easier. In particular, I can't believe it never ever occurred to me to mine so that a builder can continue instead of hitting his head. No wonder I had so many problems on this level :evil:
Bonus 27 -
Button Mashing for Experts was a pretty good level that managed to cause me problems. In particular,
Spoiler
The biggest problem I kept running into was bashing both of the OWWs before getting to all the buttons. In the end, mine is a variant of your solution in that I used a cloner after the worker lemming goes over the top of the other side (in this case, after hitting the top right button, as we both used a worker lemming from the left side) and as a result I have a blocker left. In other words, after interrupting a basher midstroke at the bottom with a walker, I used another walker skill to have the worker lemming circle back the left side. Also, I cloned the worker after he passed the exit, therefore making it unnecessary to block in front of the locked exit and hence I was able to have a blocker leftover.
In the batch of the final 9 levels of the rank, I say the hardest for me were Bonus 28 and Bonus 29,
Laboratory D-E-S-C-E-N-T and
Laboratory A-S-C-E-N-T, respectively. In particular, the latter was way more difficult. In the end, my solutions to both levels is way different from yours in that I managed to make them way more complicated than they needed to be. Regarding my solutions,
Spoiler
For Bonus 28, I never thought about cloning a glider on the starting platform and so my entire solution was a mess but still uses all the skills. Also, great use of the decoy pickups to fool someone into thinking they all needed to be collected.
For Bonus 29, although I still ended up using all skills, I don't use the trick of interrupting a platformer with a stacker AND I never ever thought about building much farther to the right below the high platform. As a result, my entire solution is completely timing heavy and a huge mess in that the timing just had to be right to manage the crowd to make sure none were nearby and they don't fall off and splat while I was platforming to the exit. Also, I got to say it surprises me how climbers don't hit their heads and are still able to get past a platform bridge that's low enough on a stack.
Bonus 30 -
Apocalypse Maintenant was an oopsie on my part in that while searching the forums with the level title in the search box, there was one post you made in that you revealed that
Spoiler
The nuke is required in the solution without putting it in a spoiler tag. If there was a spoiler tag, then I would not had peeked at all without solving the level first. At the same time, before I accidentally stumbled upon your post, I pretty much had all of the level figured out. I was just missing the nuke part. In any case, the thought of nuking might had eventually came to me even if I didn't accidentally stumble upon your post, but that's not certain. I had a similar experience in a Lemmicks level I played in that the nuke never occurred to me and I had made the connection only after I had read Nepster's NL manual in that the nuke applies to the non-fatal bombers gimmick as well. Besides, there were some hints of it being required that kind of went over my head: The fact that you can lose up to 22 lemmings AND the level title itself. Interestingly enough, after I solved the level last night, today a video of the level showed up on the home page of my Youtube tab. My solution is exactly the same, except that I was only a slightly bit more efficient in my platformer use and thus I have a platformer leftover.
Regarding Bonus 31 -
Catacomb of Sorrow and Bonus 32 -
Shadows of Ourselves, your two levels in the LDC #17, I thought the latter was the way more difficult one. Sure, the former also gave me problems, but I managed to solve that one much quicker. Solving time for 31 was about 20 minutes, while for Bonus 32 I think it was close to an hour or even an hour and a half. 32 is the very first level I have ever played with this tileset, but I got to say i'm not much of a fan of this tileset at all. However, I got to say that I love the solution to 32 way more. In particular,
Spoiler
The cloning a fencer was quite ingenious. The reason this level took me much longer is because initially I kept thinking after bashing across I fenced up through the second to last column from the left, stacked, use a walker to cancel, then try to get up by bashing and cancelling midstroke with a walker and continuing from there. Turns out it would be impossible to mine out the contained crowd later. At some point, before doing what I just described, I did try bashing all the way through and building and cloning it, but I dismissed this as a possible route too quickly. I think the problem was that I incorrectly kept thinking a builder needs to be used to get to the exit area from the right side.
So, after maybe fiddling around with the incorrect route in the early parts of the previous paragraph for probably a good 20-25 minutes or so, I came back to bashing all the way through and then cloning a builder. At one point, I had all of the solution except for destroying the terrain so that the crowd doesn't walk into the spinning fire trap. So back to refining my almost all correct solution for a few more minutes.
Then it dawned on me to clone a fencer to achieve that. However, this is the part that caused me to rage so much. The fencer kept destroying the terrain above when I didn't want it to so that the crowd would end up falling into the water instead of the builder bridge. It turns out that I needed to fence the wall in the platform above with the diamond hole in the correct position in order to get the fencer to stop and not destroy more of the terrain while fencing along the builder bridge.
Outside of the NL Tutorial Pack, Bonus 15 -
Switcheroo is the very first level I have played in any pack that has shimmiers. However, I got to say that I learned some pretty good shimmier tricks while playing the levels that have them. While I do use the shimmiers in the solution for Bonus 15 (I can't imagine any solution that doesn't), I use them very differently from your replay. You'll see what I mean when I send the replay after I go back and resolve the new versions of the 4 Genocide levels first. Also, Bonus 18 -
Stackenblochen did give me some problems, but I got to say I felt quite proud for
Spoiler
Discovering the tricks of bombing a shimmier moving away from the wall, as well as using them as a temporary jumper that only jumps straight up vertically to bomb a bit higher on a nearby lemming, on my own for this level. Once these were found, it was a near solve.
For Bonus 22 -
Time for Strongarm Tactics!, this was a really good level, but my solution is also completely different from yours.
Spoiler
I initially thought about getting a non-climber up there as well, but my solution still gets a climber up there to mine down to the crowd below. In particular, it almost fails, but the wall and exit are positioned just right so that it's possible to just platform across and then immediately dig down after it turns around so that it doesn't exit or hit the wall after gliding a bit. Once all was said and done, the only problem I had left was that the climbers (due to cloning a climber while it's mining) would die because they would get over the stack. Since I did have a couple of shimmiers at that point, I tried assigning one close to the stack, and, to my surprise, the glider will hit the stack and turn around. I thought this trick doesn't work anymore? Or am I confusing this with how before it was possible for a glider to land on top of a stack with a jumper instead before the 12.9 NL version? If so, this couldn't had been accounted for.
In any case, I do use all the skills, and I guess once again mine is a challenge solution.
Finally, while Bonus 33 -
Renaissance of Ideas isn't the hardest of the levels in the rank, I guess it's a fine level to close out the rank AND the United pack. In any case, as I said before the hardest part is the very start. Before I finally figured out the trick needed, I had the rest of the level figured out very easily, so I was simply missing the part on the left side.
Spoiler
The main challenge was figuring out how to get up with only 1 basher. For a long time, I kept thinking I needed to use a basher in combination with two stackers to get up. I have a failing replay saved where I had the stack in the right position (against the wall on the left with no gap) so that I'm able to get all lemmings coming from the right to get up in between the stacks and get stuck. That was the closest I got to a solution.
Then I tried tinkering some more with the positioning of the two stacks for quite a while. I did this for probably about 15 minutes before I decided to give up for the night and that I'll come back to it later on today.
Couple of hours ago, I played around with the positioning of the stacks even more. After about 5-10 minutes, I came to the conclusion that it's not going to work at all, because either lemmings from one side will be blocked, or there's too much ceiling that a lemming won't be able to get on top of it. I think that was then and there that I figured out that it must be the case that one should use only 1 stacker and 1 basher to get up. With that conclusion, the only challenge then was to figure out how to achieve that. This was when I came back to stacking against the left wall with no gap. For a few minutes, I kept incorrectly thinking I needed to bash to the left. After, I tried bashing to the right and I saw that if done and timed correctly, a small hole will be left in the stack that will allow lemmings to step up it coming from the right while leaving the terrain intact so that the pickup can be collected and the crowd can get up there and be stuck in a circle while the two swimmers forge the path together. That's when the light bulb came on and it was very easy from there. Then, solved! :) Also, the stoner trick of getting into the exit from Genocide 15 returns.
I have mentioned in an earlier post that so many of the levels in this rank are really inspiring and motivating me to give level creation a try, something I have said over and over that I wouldn't ever do because I'm quite certain I'm no good at it. However, the thing is I won't know if I truly am not good at it unless I try. So, I guess I have Icho's Bonus rank to thank for this ;) I haven't done anything yet, but for sure I will soon.
All 238 levels solved and hence concludes a really wonderful pack! Fun fact for the others:
I started solving this pack on this very day last year. Today, I managed to finally finish solving all of United on the 1 year mark exactly. Seriously, how did this happen? I wasn't even planning for this to happen. I guess it makes this all the more significant in that it shall be remembered by me that it took me exactly a year to solve all of United and that I started and finished the pack on
September 7, 2019 and
September 7, 2020, respectively. And on Labor Day here in the USA!
However, my task is nearly complete. All that's left for me to do is to go back and resolve the new versions of 4 Genocide levels. However, as I'm completely burnt out by the pack, I'm going to take a couple of days break before coming back to resolve them. Since it's only 4 levels, it probably won't take too long, but that remains to be seen. Probably will only take about a week or two, but so far I think Genocide 21 and 28 will take me the longest, as they both seem to be too hard for me. Speaking of which, now that I know the trick required as well as the solution for Bonus 33 and did something a bit similar on Genocide 21 at various points in the old version, I wonder if I can use this to my advantage to resolve the new version. Then again, I think Icho might had already blocked that trick on the level since he did say that "josh used the trick to backroute the level," so maybe not.
Once that's done and if I'm successful, then I will send my entire United replay collection to Icho. Then I can claim his prize.
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 07, 2020, 08:45:56 AM
It has now officially been a year since I first took on United. Coincidentally, I've reached the very final level of the pack, meaning I'm on the the last level of the Bonus rank, several hours ago. 205 main levels, plus 33 bonus levels, and so I'm on the 238th and final level of the pack. Just in time to mark the day I started United exactly a year ago today. I wonder how that happened?
Wow 1 year on a pack. Now I know why Uberwolfie stated United is for a madman. Anyways again congrats And yes I see that your stressed out on it. I think you may be one of few people to be
so dedicated on it though. And I know you did Icho a really big favor in playing it, especially the last 2 ranks, because they have mostly been untested for backroutes, as he was constantly
updating his pack by using your replays. It would be nice if once you resolve the 4 remaining Genocide levels, and send your replays to Icho and he is satisfied with your replays(also using
Mass replay checks), he would send you some kind of prize(not sure what though).
Anyways I think you deserve a big break after doing that pack.
Quote from: ericderkovits on September 07, 2020, 11:52:43 PM
Wow 1 year on a pack. Now I know why Uberwolfie stated United is for a madman. Anyways again congrats And yes I see that your stressed out on it. I think you may be one of few people to be
so dedicated on it though. And I know you did Icho a really big favor in playing it, especially the last 2 ranks, because they have mostly been untested for backroutes, as he was constantly
updating his pack by using your replays.
Thanks again for your kind words, eric. I have PMed you my replays for United except for the 4 Genocide levels I need to resolve. I will send Icho all my replays once I am successful in resolving those 4 levels.
Congratulation for your achievement! :thumbsup:
Also glad to hear that you are considering submitting some levels to LDC.
That will certainly be something to look forward to. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Armani on September 08, 2020, 07:48:10 AM
Congratulation for your achievement! :thumbsup:
Also glad to hear that you are considering submitting some levels to LDC.
That will certainly be something to look forward to. :thumbsup:
Thanks a bunch, Armani! :) Regarding the current LDC, I haven't started anything, although given there's about 3 weeks remaining it'll most likely be rushed at this point. However, I'm not going to really stress if I can't get anything in before the submission deadline. If I miss the cutoff point, then next LDC for sure. At least that way there will be several months before the next one and I won't feel as rushed and pressured and my resulting levels being super crappy. :crylaugh:
QuoteAnd, Bonus 33 solved! Took me a lot longer than I thought it would, but I finally did it. Thus, the Bonus rank is finally all solved and therefore I finally have completed all of United!
Congratulations!:thumbsup: This is already an accomplishment even if there are still a few backroutes left. :) I also encourage you to give the level creation side a try!
I have 1 request though: Could you send me the bonus replays now, as I see from the comments that there are probably a few backroutes in there that I want to fix and the prize is given out after all your solutions are not considered to be backroutes anyway.
This way I can fix them now and when you're refreshed and resolving the remaining levels you can also resolve the backrouted bonus levels in a single swoop. ;)
Per your request, here are my Bonus rank replays.
Quote from: IchoTolot on September 08, 2020, 09:04:28 AM
QuoteAnd, Bonus 33 solved! Took me a lot longer than I thought it would, but I finally did it. Thus, the Bonus rank is finally all solved and therefore I finally have completed all of United!
Congratulations!:thumbsup: This is already an accomplishment even if there are still a few backroutes left. :) I also encourage you to give the level creation side a try!
That's what I want to hear; the creator recognising Kaywhyn's success and sending his congratulations!
Anyway, good job, Kaywhyn. You deserve a good long relax.
Quote from: Minim on September 08, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
That's what I want to hear; the creator recognising Kaywhyn's success and sending his congratulations!
Anyway, good job, Kaywhyn. You deserve a good long relax.
Thanks a bunch, Minim! :) I think it's clear that you and many of the other long time members have also been following my quest on beating all of United for the past several months. It was definitely a long and difficult journey, but I finally did it. All without viewing any solutions, too. Well, at least not before I have solved the level myself first. I only watch after I beat the level to compare my solution to others.
V 12.0 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:
- 6 12 (added some steel and fire)
- 6 20 (the blockers are now pick-ups)
- 6 22 (the diggers are now pick-ups)
Comments:
Yeah those 3 levels were quite butchered. :P Hopefully this fixes them, the rest I consider as either intended or acceptable. In some cases where you already suspected it you really made your life harder than it needed to be. ;)
Bonus 3 - Burning Ships
This level was made in collaboration with Simon where we took the output of the Mandelbrot-Set and made it into a level.
Overarmed and Underarmed
This was a collaboration with SQron188 and möbius. It seems it resulted in a very good level. ;)
Bonus 25 - Spires of Mire
Another collaboration effort. Also, an alternative shorter version of the level resulted from this project. Flopsy took an earlier, easier alteration and made it it's own level, it should be in SEBlems.
So where we currently stand: Just 7 levels to resolve (4 Genocide + 3 Bonus levels), and then if everything survives a mass replay check, that's it for me? Sounds good to me! ;)
Quote from: IchoTolot on September 08, 2020, 01:35:36 PM
Bonus 3 - Burning Ships
This level was made in collaboration with Simon where we took the output of the Mandelbrot-Set and made it into a level.
Yea, you're right. Given that I'm a math teacher, I should had recognized the resemblance to Mandelbrot's fractal set in there.
Quote
Bonus 25 - Spires of Mire
Another collaboration effort. Also, an alternative shorter version of the level resulted from this project. Flopsy took an earlier, easier alteration and made it it's own level, it should be in SEBlems.
Yes, I eventually would love to take on SEBlems at some point in the future.
well Kaywhyn I deleted your 3 replays that Icho updated for.(since yours are now broken)
Level 12 2 Minutes before the Mall opens(due to added fire and steel)
Level 20 Lemmings in Unison (due to added blockers) Note: I knew your replay was a backroute after comparing it to Icho's, so I knew he was going to change this one.
Level 22 Time for Strongarm Tactics (due to diggers are now pickup skills)
At least only 3 of the Bonus rank levels you have to resolve. Not bad out of 33 levels.
So I went ahead and turned green the other 30 levels or yours that were accepted.
Now all but 4 levels in Genocide and 3 Bonus levels are green in the pack
3/33 for the Bonus rank is quite good indeed. It helps that a lot of these are LDC levels, as they pretty much were completely all patched up before the playing phase ended. Since I already know the intended solutions to these 3 levels before Icho released the V12 update, these should be extremely quick fixes, so I'm not worried about these levels at all. It's simply a matter of seeing if the intended solution routes are indeed completely enforced now. It's the Genocide levels I'm more worried about, particularly 21 and 28, as these seem way too hard now. Especially 28. 37 seems to only be a minor tweak, so that might be a quick replay fix on my part. 40 might be the same, especially with the 2 minute time limit, even though I will have to drastically change the replay solution. However, I do agree with him that it was best for me to have sent him the Bonus rank replays now just so I can take care of all 7 of these in "one fell swoop" whenever I come back and am ready to take on them again.
Woo, I did it! I was able to resolve the new version of Genocide 21.
Spoiler
I still think my solution is really fiddly, but due to how you added so much more pick-up skills and took away all stackers at the beginning, the solution is only slightly more obvious. It's still difficult to spot though, especially with the starting area it was quite frustrating trying to find the certain position with digging and then bashing so that the stack gets interrupted by the ceiling and is still surmountable on both sides so that no destruction of any of the stack is necessary. Is this the central trick that you were trying to enforce? Consequently, it seems the only way through the middle area is with 3 bashers, which is exactly what I used in Genocide 41 at the bottom and seems to only be the tricky timing part of the level. After that, I could then use the same solution from the failed replay I sent you, except that I was able to save that critical builder for the last part instead. Other than finding the key positions at the beginning with the digging and bashing so that the crowd can still get up the stack, the solution seems not as fiddly as the first time I solved the level. Finally, I maxed the RR immediately at the start, so I'm wondering if there are easier ways to get the timing better.
6 more levels to resolve, and leaves Genocide 28 as the only one I think might take me a long time to resolve. I feel the other two, Genocide 37 and 40, will be quick resolves. After that, that leaves just the 3 levels from the Bonus rank to resolve, but since I already know the intended solutions to them, they should really only take me a few minutes. Then I think we'll be good to go.
V 12.1 is out!
Fixed a backroute thanks to joshescue18's replays:
- 2 17 (the climbers are now a pick-up skill)
Wow, ok I was looking to find joshcue's18 replays here in this board, but I don't see any from him. I wanted to see his neutrality 17 one fail with new update. My replays folder for United consists of Icho's of course(which always work), a 2nd set by Kaywhyn(his Neutrality 17 works) and I have a 3rd folder of replays from others but not a complete set as not all the ranks levels were played. I like to compare solutions from many people. It's just the 3rd folder replays only have some, but it did include Neutrality 17(just not sure who's it was-and that replay worked-so it must not have been joschcue18 solution for Neutrality 17.)
Maybe Joshcue18 pmd Icho his, as they are not listed on the forum.
josh was one of the pre-testers of the pack, and they pretty much just PMed their solutions to Icho. In any case, it's quite easy to see why the update for Neutrality 17 was needed.
Spoiler
If one assigns a climber to the second lemming, then no one ends up in the water and hence both swimmers are leftover. My replay for Neutrality 17 from last year still works because I already solved it correctly by not delaying the second lemming with a climber. It doesn't matter if the builder is a climber before building and hence the cloned lemmings are also climbers, but in any case by making both climbers a pick-up this ensures you only have two of them to work with and that both swimmers will be used.
As for your third set of replays, it's likely namida's.
V 12.2 is out!
Fixed a backroute thanks to kaywhyn's replay:
- 2 03 (some terrain changes)
Since there still appears to be backroutes even in the Neutrality rank (I thought we got them all, but apparently not!), I went ahead and PMed you my Pacifism and Neutrality replays now as well. In this way, it's like you said before, which is if there are indeed additional backroute fixes needed, I can also resolve the others in addition to the remaining backroute patched Genocide/Bonus levels in "one fell swoop" instead of we both finding out later that other backroutes have shown up and that I need to resolve some other levels too.
Quote from: kaywhyn on October 04, 2020, 05:06:22 PM
Since there still appears to be backroutes even in the Neutrality rank (I thought we got them all, but apparently not!), I went ahead and PMed you my Pacifism and Neutrality replays now as well. In this way, it's like you said before, which is if there are indeed additional backroute fixes needed, I can also resolve the others in addition to the remaining backroute patched Genocide/Bonus levels in "one fell swoop" instead of we both finding out later that other backroutes have shown up and that I need to resolve some other levels too.
Only your 2 03 needs fixing from your side now.
All other solutions are acceptable. :)
Good to know! :)
also after mentioning you started putting up on Youtube "All Hallows Eve", I noticed you put on Youtube United's Neutrality rank. I love watching your commentaries.
Finally, a second person has confirmed solved all of United with 100% intended/acceptable solutions! :thumbsup:
Congratulation to kaywhyn! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Now only 1 prize remains to be clamed. ;)
Thanks a bunch for the congratulations, Icho! :thumbsup: 7 months after the first person solved all of United too. Now for a third brave soul who's willing to take on the pack ;) I apologize to the third taker in advance where I have made a lot of the levels way more difficult after being backroute patched :P Even then, don't be discouraged. Just keep at it, and you can get through it all, too ;)
V 12.3 is out!
Fixed a backroute thanks to josh's replay:
- 4 39 (removed some terrain and steel)
V 12.4 is out!
Fixed a backroute thanks to josh's replays:
- 4 14 (added a OWW)
- 4 20 (added some steel, this is more of a "make the level cleaner" than backroute preventing fix)
- 4 35 (added a 11:11 min timer, I finally had enough with the "let's wait for 20+ minutes for the perfect timing" solutions :devil: as the intended way involves near to no waiting, I could even go lower up to like 9:30 but I don't want to make this a time cruncher)
- 4 39 (3 stackers are now pick-up skills, moved another pick-up skill)
Just like that, another update in quick succession. Looks like the backroute war continues. I even declared the War rank backroute free months ago after I had resolved a few versions of 4 32, but josh still ends up backrouting some of the levels in the rank. As a result, my replays for 4 20 and 4 39 still work, while they broke for 4 14 and 4 35, although the latter is more to stop the waiting around game since with the numerous amount of pickups in the level it's pretty much backroute free, or so I believe. In any case, I've already fixed my replays for those two, so not a problem.
edit: for 4 35, I managed to beat it in 8:17, in other words, with 2 minutes and 54 seconds left on the timer. In the process, I have a walker leftover. That probably won't change the timer you set for the level though, as you don't want it to be too tight.
Quote
edit: for 4 35, I managed to beat it in 8:17, in other words, with 2 minutes and 54 seconds left on the timer. In the process, I have a walker leftover. That probably won't change the timer you set for the level though, as you don't want it to be too tight.
The walker is especially there so you can always avoid the waiting game. So no big worries here, also my own solution is not optimized for time. I took about 9:10.
V 12.5 is out!
Fixed a backroute thanks to josh's replays:
- 4 14 (extended the newly added OWW)
Seems like it wasn't properly patched yet. :devil:
Now, I say 4 14 is a way more decent challenge, as it's definitely harder now, but not by much since I already know the trick needed.
Spoiler
4 38 uses the exact same trick, just that it's a huge separation, over 20 levels before one sees/uses it again.
Hopefully this is the last of the backroutes for the War rank, but knowing josh he'll probably just keep finding them one way or another. Not that it matters, since all of my solutions have already been long accepted by you. However, it will matter in the quest for the third person completing the pack for the prize, though ;)
Got a new accepted challenge solution with the latest bunch of replays: Save an extra lem+bomber on Genocide 8. ;)
V 12.6 is out!
Fixed a backroute thanks to josh's replays:
- 5 09 ("extended" a trap trigger)
My first Lemmings video on your Lemmings United pack is up on my Youtube channel. That's how much I love this pack of yours. Here is the link: Kaywhyn's Lemmings United Level Solving Commentary Video Series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLp47-ia3fM&t=530s). Check it out and back for more later on when I get around to making more ;) Hope you like it and hopefully it's still enjoyable to watch and listen to despite how I constantly fumble my words when recording. Keep in mind this is the very first OBS video I have recorded and the very first one I have uploaded to my channel in a very long time. Time for me to join the Lemmings video making/solving wagon and revive my channel.
QuoteMy first Lemmings video on your Lemmings United pack is up on my Youtube channel. That's how much I love this pack of yours. Here is the link: Kaywhyn's Lemmings United Level Solving Commentary Video Series. Check it out and back for more later on when I get around to making more ;) Hope you like it and hopefully it's still enjoyable to watch and listen to despite how I constantly fumble my words when recording. Keep in mind this is the very first OBS video I have recorded and the very first one I have uploaded to my channel in a very long time. Time for me to join the Lemmings video making/solving wagon and revive my channel.
I will watch the series with great interest! ;)
I am also glad that I could be of help in setting up the recording setup. :)
Quote
I will watch the series with great interest! ;)
Glad to hear it. Hopefully the quality came out just fine. On my end, both the music and my voice are loud, but that's because my new laptop has extremely powerful speakers. Still, hope I'm still audible enough despite the music. I can hear myself just fine. I'll likely do it at the same pace you're currently doing your series, up through Neutrality 41, meaning 8 videos for quite a while and will resume once you continue. Perhaps with this concurrent series I'm doing it'll get more people to play your pack, which I still highly recommend despite the very high difficulty :)
Quote
I am also glad that I could be of help in setting up the recording setup. :)
Believe me, you were a huge help in this regard. Recommendation for a headphone, settings to use in OBS, plenty. Also, I think this community could always use more Lemmings LPers, so I decided to jump on the wagon in this regard as well as upload my solutions online ;)
I will also watch the series :thumbsup:
It's always fun to compare own solutions to others :D
All 4 of my videos covering the entire Pacifism rank are up! I invite everyone to come and check out my video series on Lemmings United. Kaywhyn's Lemmings United video series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLp47-ia3fM&list=PLbp2m4KlFpJu5Amr1BoQpGIzrxkMxOLGY)
V 12.7 is out!
Menu graphics and rank graphics have been adjusted for the new release. Please delete your old version of the pack first before updating!
V 12.8 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to josh's replays:
- 6 04 (extended a OWW)
- 6 05 (added a steel block)
V 12.9 is out!
Fixed backroutes thanks to josh's replays:
- 6 04 (a basher is now a pick-up skill)
And the last prize has been won by: joshescue18! :thumbsup:
Finally 3 people have managed to 100% solve the whole pack with acceptable/intended solutions! :thumbsup:
I'm still hoping more will come to that point though. ;P
Here are my Pacifism replays. I like how each style also has an identifiable puzzle style: the Sports theme resonates with the Lemmings Reunion Sports levels etc...
Some of the levels where I felt the leftover skills might be unintended:
* 05 6 Floater 3 Platformer 2 Builder 2 Fencer
* 08 1 Builder
* 25 1 Floater 1 Stacker
* 32 1 Walker 1 Floater
My favourite levels:
* 21 Little Wilma - One of the first of all these cool Cavelem style levels
* 27 Dr. Do-Ping's Hideout - I also like all your Sports style levels
* 39 Symphony Of The Night - a very engaging beginner difficulty puzzle
* 41 As Far As Peace Can Go - seemed very hard after the Pacifism levels, but didn't take long after playing some of the Neutrality levels as well as the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
Least favourites:
* 26 The Circular Lemming Reactor - maybe I just dislike teleporters :)
Now a few more Neutrality levels to solve.. perhaps in the next weeks... 8-)
Thanks for the replays! :thumbsup:
All solutions are acceptable and your suspected backroutes are cases where I either gave more skills than nessesary or allowed some alternatives. :)
Good luck solving the next rank. :)
I'll be filming Pacifism for my next episode of Just The First Rank (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4899), and I noticed that it's a whopping 41 levels!
Since this will probably make the episode 2 hours or more (even with edits), and I'm not really up for splitting it across 2 episodes, I was wondering if you'd be happy to suggest a list of maybe 10-15 levels from Pacifism which would be best to LP, or - which level is best to start from?
EDIT: I'll also give the three full-pack solvers (Armani, kaywhyn and joshescue18) a shout out in this video :lemcat:
Quote from: IchoTolot on November 23, 2020, 10:47:58 PM
And the last prize has been won by: joshescue18! :thumbsup:
Finally 3 people have managed to 100% solve the whole pack with acceptable/intended solutions! :thumbsup:
I'm still hoping more will come to that point though. ;P
I missed this post (because I was about to sleep at the time and overnight more posts about other packs went through). Congrats to our top three users: Armani, Kaywhyn and joshescue! :thumbsup:
And HerpDerp, welcome to the forums!
Little announcement:
As joshescue18 rejected the third and last price, I've decided to redirect it to namida as a little "thank you" gift for all the coding and maintenance for NL. And I think that's worth a little gift! :)
Quote from: IchoTolot on November 30, 2020, 06:29:26 PM
As joshescue18 rejected the third and last price, I've decided to redirect it to namida as a little "thank you" gift for all the coding and maintenance for NL. And I think that's worth a little gift! :)
Absolutely! Congratulations, namida :lemcat:
Quote from: IchoTolot on November 30, 2020, 06:29:26 PM
Little announcement:
As joshescue18 rejected the third and last price, I've decided to redirect it to namida as a little "thank you" gift for all the coding and maintenance for NL. And I think that's worth a little gift! :)
Aww, that's so nice :thumbsup: I can certainly agree with this decision, as all of this wouldn't be possible without namida. I nearly thought about not accepting the prize either, and I was thinking to simply allow the next solver to claim it instead, but in this case it would turn out to be a moot point, since josh didn't want it. In any case, I accept the received prize with pride. It's not much, but it's still something. I especially love the postcard, so thank you for that Icho! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Minim on November 26, 2020, 07:19:39 AM
I missed this post (because I was about to sleep at the time and overnight more posts about other packs went through). Congrats to our top three users: Armani, Kaywhyn and joshescue! :thumbsup:
Thanks again, Minim! Congrats to Armani and josh from me as well.
Quote from: WillLem on November 26, 2020, 05:45:58 AM
EDIT: I'll also give the three full-pack solvers (Armani, kaywhyn and joshescue18) a shout out in this video :lemcat:
Awesome! :thumbsup:
Also Icho, I'll likely start recording for the video series again soon ;)
All rightie, I have resumed recording for the series. I would had waited for you to continue recording first, but I later realized that I don't necessarily have to do that. The only thing I miss out on is your commentary by doing it first, but it's not a problem. I can tell that you have been absolutely enjoying watching my videos on your Lemmings United pack. Well, I been enjoying our mini discussions via the comments very much :) Thank you very much for the comments on my videos, especially ones that discuss my solutions :thumbsup: I just love getting feedback on that, especially from the pack author ;) It's been a real blast making these videos for you to enjoy.
Here are all of my solutions.
Quote from: joshescue18 on September 29, 2021, 08:20:15 PM
Here are all of my solutions.
Are there any differences compared to your full set of replays from last time? ???
If there are differences, which replays might be worth checking for backroutes? ???
Let's say if there are no new solutions and no new possible backroutes I can save myself quite a bit of time. ;P
All of my solutions are from last November.
V 13.0 is out!
A little fix that changes the tileset references of 2 Bonus levels (dex_DaVinci --> dex_davinci).
V 13.1 is out!
A sneaky backroute by HerpDerp has been fixed:
- 3 06 (removed some terrain)
Hello Icho,
I have attached another solution to Genocide 39. This doesn't seem like a backroute, but rather a challenge solution that saves a skill :P
Quote from: kaywhyn on July 04, 2022, 08:04:39 PM
Hello Icho,
I have attached another solution to Genocide 39. This doesn't seem like a backroute, but rather a challenge solution that saves a skill :P
I would agree here. :)
I finished the Neutrality rank today! The last level that I solved from the set was 37 - Another One Bites The Dust.
Really liked the levels, here are a few that stood out for me (with a few spoilers).
My favourite levels:
Spoiler
2 - Let it Krachen
14 - 3791980 - Because it's a 1 of all skills level, I took it on pretty early and got stuck hard. Very clever one!
40 - To The Control Room - I've been trying to avoid "big difficult levels with lots of skills" and this was one of the first of that kind that I solved and really enjoyed throughout.
41 - Neutral No More
Absolute mind-benders:
Spoiler
10 - Racing Hearts - made me quit and come back overall the most. Taught me to try lots of different openings when in trouble!
29 - Tonight it's Showtime - taught valuable stacker-cloner combos, but pretty hard to figure out.
35 - Revenants - lots of puzzling/logic combined with trial and error!
39 - FREEDOM!!
Levels I didn't like:
Spoiler
3 - Arkon - very sneaky use of a platformer. Well I don't exactly dislike the level, but not noticing where to use the platformer made me mad!
6 - Cyclic Crowd Control - difficult for me to plan exact crowd movements for the "builder" part of the level.
Quote from: HerpDerp on July 07, 2022, 11:49:16 AM
I finished the Neutrality rank today! The last level that I solved from the set was 37 - Another One Bites The Dust.
Really liked the levels, here are a few that stood out for me (with a few spoilers).
My favourite levels:
Spoiler
2 - Let it Krachen
14 - 3791980 - Because it's a 1 of all skills level, I took it on pretty early and got stuck hard. Very clever one!
40 - To The Control Room - I've been trying to avoid "big difficult levels with lots of skills" and this was one of the first of that kind that I solved and really enjoyed throughout.
41 - Neutral No More
Absolute mind-benders:
Spoiler
10 - Racing Hearts - made me quit and come back overall the most. Taught me to try lots of different openings when in trouble!
29 - Tonight it's Showtime - taught valuable stacker-cloner combos, but pretty hard to figure out.
35 - Revenants - lots of puzzling/logic combined with trial and error!
39 - FREEDOM!!
Levels I didn't like:
Spoiler
3 - Arkon - very sneaky use of a platformer. Well I don't exactly dislike the level, but not noticing where to use the platformer made me mad!
6 - Cyclic Crowd Control - difficult for me to plan exact crowd movements for the "builder" part of the level.
Thanks for the feedback and glad you liked the pack so far! :thumbsup:
V 13.2 is out!
An older backroute by Gronkling has been fixed:
- 2 19 (a blocker is now a pick-up)