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NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Levels => In Development => Topic started by: kieranmillar on December 23, 2017, 03:18:08 PM

Title: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran Development Thread
Post by: kieranmillar on December 23, 2017, 03:18:08 PM
Released! Go here instead: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6184.0

----

Welcome to Quest From Kieran, the prequel to Quest From Kieran 2!

This is a 40 56 60 level pack for Neolemmix v12.12.5 or later. It contains levels in the traditional Lemmings style, so only the original 8 skills, no levels taller than the original height, only levels styles from the original game and Oh No, that sort of thing. There are probably a billion backroutes. Difficulty is probably overall mid-to-high with a small number of easy levels at the start and getting very brutal towards the end, but I have no idea how to really gauge this.

The music is songs made by classic British demoscene musician 4mat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4mat), specifically tracks from a Jet Set Willy remake. You should be fine with regards to e.g. copyright on Youtube playthroughs. I came up with my own names for the tracks, there were no official names.

The Ranks

Fun
I thought it made no sense why only the original game gets to have a rank that states the levels are fun. I want my levels to be fun too! So I named this rank Fun. Hah! Take that!
(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk/rank1.png)
Investing in Infrastructure

Also Fun
What, you thought only the first few levels in a level pack are allowed to be fun? Well not this time! These levels are a bit harder, but they're still fun!
(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk/rank2.png)
Frozen Arches

Hard But Still Fun
Levels don't have to be easy to be fun. Even my hard levels are fun!
(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk/rank3.png)
Pillars of the Community

Not Fun
Well I guess they can't all be winners.
(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk/rank4.png)
The High Ground

How to Install

Extract the contents of the zip file into Neolemmix's levels folder. Then inside Neolemmix, press F2 to select the level pack you wish to play. If you want the music, extract the files into Neolemmix's music folder.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran
Post by: Akseli on December 28, 2017, 09:43:59 PM
Okay, solved 37/40 of them now, my solutions are attached. Mostly backroutes I guess but still pretty enjoyable pack so far!

Spoiler

Also Fun 4: Slow Motion - I apparently saved my ordinary route replay solution at first without realizing that I killed the climber. The second (climberless) solution fails barely because everyone can't fall to the left from the digger pit.

Hard But Still Fun 3: My First Crush - No good idea on this one yet, I can't merge the left group effectively enough, will lose 10 too many or so.

Not Fun 9: Rock Climbers - I don't know how to save the climber miner guy, since both bashers go to releazing the blockers, otherwise the basher could save the climber guy in the green wall at the bottom.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v02 - 16/03/2018}
Post by: kieranmillar on March 16, 2018, 12:25:12 AM
Attached to the opening post you will find v2 of this pack.

For various reasons that I won't detail here, I had decided I wasn't going to finish this pack and fix all of the issues. However abandoning a pack after all of the levels have already been built and leaving the pack completely busted was lame, so instead I have decided to do all of the quick backroute fixes I had on my ToDo list and release a version 2.

There are still many levels that are extremely broken. I'm not sure what to do, I'm not willing to spend too much time on this pack any more. Perhaps for those levels I could release the official solutions and if anybody has any good ideas on how to fix those levels I will make those changes? Or just release as-is.

In the meantime, have these small changes:

v02 changelog:
Spoiler
Fun 4 Humiliated By Burgundy - Steel at top of drop.
Fun 7 Grasping at Straws - More traps and less terrain.
Fun 9 Just Dropping In - Lowered sand block in middle of level, and lowered wooden plank above exit.

Also Fun 4 Slow Motion - Fixed flipped hatch
Also Fun 6 The Burrowers - Added steel
Also Fun 7 Health and Safety Gone Mad - Removed terrain in top corner that was supposed to be purely decorative.
Also Fun 8 Humble Bundle - Extended wall spike trap downwards.
Also Fun 9 The Firing Squad - Flattened final pillar and slightly repositioned some others

Hard But Still Fun 1 Uphill Struggle - A bit of steel in the centre of the level.
Hard But Still Fun 2 Lemming BBQ - Steel under the fire pit.
Hard But Still Fun 4 Pillars of the Community - Cut out brick on eastern wall + added steel.
Hard But Still Fun 5 Master Exploder - Raised height of pillars.
Hard But Still Fun 7 How's It Hanging? - Steel just behind bottom trap.
Hard But Still Fun 9 Increasing Productivity - Changed floor under trap, added steel before exit.

Not Fun 3 Brickin' 'eck - Steeled up the entire top of the entrance platform.
Not Fun 5 Joint Construction - Lowered ceiling above in highest area above small water pit.
Not Fun 7 Offshore Rig - The lower of the two planks directly above exit split into two.
Not Fun 9 Rock Climbers - Steel below top hatch


List of still broken levels:
Fun 6 A Bridge To Far?
Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest
Also Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest, Take 2
Hard But Still Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest, Take 3
Not Fun 1 Mined Your Head
Not Fun 2 Organic Lemming
Not Fun 4 Down The Tubes
Not Fun 6 Toil
Not Fun 8 The High Ground
Not Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest, Take 4
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v02 - 16/03/2018}
Post by: Wafflem on March 24, 2018, 09:13:47 PM
I've streamed this pack on Twitch (along with two ArtLems levels). It'll be up for 14 days:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242379534

I've played the first two ranks and some of the third rank, and I've found a lot of backroutes, specifically in the following levels:
A Bridge Too Far (Fun 6), Grasping At Straws (Fun 7), The Ultimate Quest (Fun 10)
The Tree of Death (Also Fun 2), Most Valuable Lemming (Also Fun 5), The Burrowers (Also Fun 6)

I've also attached my replays. Overall, I had a LOT of fun streaming this pack, and I look forward to streaming it again at some point. Thanks for the pack, Kieran! :laugh:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v02 - 16/03/2018}
Post by: Akseli on August 26, 2018, 08:25:55 PM
Finally revisited this level pack, attached working replays for all the levels in the second version of the pack, QFK_v02. So most of the replays are same that I posted last time, but I also solved now the updated levels as well and three levels that I didn't solve the first time.

Comments on the levels that aren't in the "broken level list" (contain spoilers):

Spoiler
Fun 4: Humiliated by Burgundy, 7: Grasping at Straws and 9: Just Dropping In - These were updated from the first rating, and they're really solid easy-ish difficulty levels now.

Also Fun 4: Slow Motion - I didn't solve this last time. A tremendously fantastic level, simple layout but there's somehow quite a lot happening there. In my opinion this should be at least in the next rating, this is way too challenging for this place.
Also Fun 6: The Burrowers - Now a bit more reasonable solution in the updated version, this solution came to my mind at first but I think that the intended solutions works in a way that you dig few times with the hero climber lemming going that cycle from down to up again, so a shaft is created for builders to zig zag up it.
Also Fun 7: Health And Safety Gone Mad - This is an excellent level now! :thumbsup:
Also Fun 8: Humble Bundle and 9: The Firing Squad - Really nice. The latter might be a backroute, though.

Hard But Still Fun 1: Uphill Struggle, 2: Lemming BBQ, 4: Pillars of the Community and 9: Increasing Productivity - Really enjoyable and superb levels now! :thumbsup:
Hard But Still Fun 3: My First Crush - I didn't solve this the first time, got this now. :)
Hard But Still Fun 5: Master Exploder - A good level, could be a backroute though?
Hard But Still Fun 7: How's It Hanging? - This one I suspect backrouting almost in the same way as last time.
Hard But Still Fun 8: Tough Mudder - This level wasn't updated, and my solution feels ok even though it saves a skill. But you told me earlier that the only level I solved intendedly in this ranking was Spiral Staircase, so how it is?

Not Fun 3: Brickin' 'eck - Super awesome level, I'm really hyped about this pack! :thumbsup:
Not Fun 5: Joint Construction - Few diggers saved, I'm suspecting a backroute here.
Not Fun 7: Offshore Rig - I used now my spare builder from my last solution to most probably backroute this again.
Not Fun 9: Rock Climbers - I didn't solve this last time, now I got it! Updating the top left area with a steel floor helped me to find this solution, and fortunately I saved my attempt replay earlier that helped me to set that difficult miner-builder thing up with that quick 55-75-55 RR adjustment. A hard and great level!

I'm really loving this pack, and it's a bit shame that you don't have motivation to work on it anymore, but even if at least some not-that-broken levels will still get possible easy fixes, I'd appreciate it a lot! And if we don't count the recurring The Ultimate Quest level and most of the last rating because of the backroutes, I'd highly recommend this pack for everyone to play. Really people, there's no excuse not to play this pack, have a go at this level pack gem! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v03 - 12/01/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on January 12, 2019, 03:44:24 PM
Whaaaaaaat!? 10 months later and there's an update? Version 03 has been released and attached to the opening post. I felt bad that Akseli enjoyed the pack so much but I had abandoned it, so I started working on it again.

Most important changes: This pack has 10 new levels! But 6 old ones have been removed (Fun 6 - A Bridge Too Far?, Not Fun 2 - Organic Lemming and all 4 Ultimate Quest levels that were at the end of each rank). So, each rank currently has 11 levels for a total of 44. I plan to make it go back to a more satisfying round number of levels eventually by adding even more levels, but figured it could do with a release in its current state. I do plan to eventually make a replacement for The Ultimate Quest, but that will take a while as it requires redoing from scratch and there's no point in leaving the broken levels around in the meantime.

The addition and removal of levels have made most of the levels change position, so if you care about your previous replays you might want to note which one was for which level if you only have them saved via rank name and number. All mention of rank name and number below are the new positions.

EDIT: Pack now requires Neolemmix v12.04.00 or later, which is the current latest stable version.

Levels that are still broken but I plan to fix:
Hard But Still Fun 3 - Grasping at Straws
Not Fun 1 - Mined Your Head
Not Fun 5 - Down The Tubes
Not Fun 10 - The High Ground

v03 changelog:
Spoiler

  • Fun
    • 01 - Investing in Infrastructure - New level!
    • 05 - So Close ... And Yet - New Level!
    • 07 - Holes and Coals - New Level!
    • 09 - On the Skew - Moved ranks, level is unchanged.
  • Also Fun
    • 01 - The Tree of Death - Extended one-way field higher to prevent Wafflem's backroute that barely got over the arrow field. Akseli's solution is intended.
    • 04 - The Burrowers - More steel to fix Akseli's solution (Akseli, you are correct in what you predicted the intended solution would be)
    • 05 - Snow Plows - New Level!
    • 07 - Impact Zone - New Level!
    • 09 - Jacob's Ladder - New Level!
    • 10 - Lemming BBQ - Moved ranks, level is unchanged.
    • 11 - Rock-A-Bye Lemmy - New Level!
  • Hard But Still Fun
    • 02 - Recession-Proof - New Level!
    • 03 - Grasping at Straws - Moved ranks, level is unchanged. Note: Level is broken and due to change
    • 05 - Pillars of the Community - The pillars now don't have little bumps at the bottom to prevent slightly easier solution.
    • 06 - Slow Motion - Moved ranks, level is unchanged.
    • 09 - How's it Hanging? - Steel below bottom hanging machine, and increased save requirement, because I realised there was a clean way to save more lemmings
    • 10 - Tough Mudder - Removed a miner and a hole in the terrain to enforce a larger delay for the crowd
    • 11 - Increasing Productivity - Exit moved further away so requires 2 builders. Skills unchanged despite this.
  • Not Fun
    • 02 - Rising Condensation - New Level!
    • 03 - Rescue Rodents - New Level!
    • 06 - Joint Constrction - Added steel below top wall
    • 07 - The Firing Squad -Moved Ranks. Numerous backroute fixes: Now there are 2 turns to the exit, there is more space behind each pillar, and each tube on the main part of the level ends a bit sooner.
    • 08 - Offshore Rig - Taller steel near exit
    • 09 - Toil - Not sure what happened here but some Neolemmix version has flipped the diagonal thin terrain so the level had these weird floating ramps facing the wrong way. I've fixed these + a whole bunch more changes, including skills and number of lemmings
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v04 - 16/01/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on January 16, 2019, 09:31:01 PM
Another version, mainly adding more levels, plus some tweaks to others, including a rework of all 4 The Ultimate Quest levels, redesigned from scratch to more accurately represent the ideas the original levels were meant to convey, but were too complex and therefore too easily backrouted.

I'm trying to focus on making levels on the easier side because I think this pack overall is very hard and could do with a bit more of a gradual difficulty curve. I still plan to have all levels be interesting puzzles, just try to make them more straightforward.

There are now 13 levels in each rank. I hope to eventually reach 15 levels per rank.

Levels that are still broken but I plan to fix:
Hard But Still Fun 4 - Grasping at Straws
Not Fun 2 - Mined Your Head
Not Fun 6 - Down The Tubes

v04 changelog:
Spoiler
  • Fun
    • 6 - Brolly Jolly - New Level
    • 11 - Wrong Tool for the Job - New Level
    • 13 - The Ultimate Quest - New Level
  • Also Fun
    • 1 - Just Dropping In - Moved up from previous rank, no changes.
    • 4 - Most Valuable Lemming - Slight tweaks for ease-of-play and a backroute fix.
    • 6 - Snow Plows - Made water show up in front of terrain, no solution-relevant changes.
    • 10 - The Dire Docks - New Level
    • 13 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 2 - New Level
  • Hard But Still Fun
    • 1 - Rock-A-Bye Lemmy - Moved up from previous rank, no changes.
    • 11 - The Temple of Doom - New Level
    • 13 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - New Level
  • Not Fun
    • 1 - Increasing Productivity - Moved up from previous rank, no changes.
    • 10 - Toil - Numerous tweaks to terrain, skills, save requirement and release rate to make level easier to execute, especially at the start, and to pre-emptively remove some potential backroutes.
    • 11 - The High Ground - All sorts of changes to kill backroutes and simplify things a bit
    • 13 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 4 - New Level
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v04 - 16/01/2019}
Post by: Akseli on January 20, 2019, 12:07:08 AM
What a surprise! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

My v04 solutions are attached, though I didn't yet re-solve Pillars of the Community (yep, whaat?) and The Firing Squad (oh, this might be really evil...). Loads of backroutes probably, but I think I've now found a decent solutions at least for How's it Hanging? and Increasing Productivity, and also for the new level Rescue Rodents. The Ultimate Quest levels feel more reasonable also, now!

Investing in Infrastructre level has a typo in its title.

Edit: Btw, I played these with NeoLemmix V 12.03.00 or so, I don't know if there's important changes.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v04 - 16/01/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on January 20, 2019, 01:07:51 PM
Cheers for playing again Akseli. Lots of backroutes to fix!

How's It Hanging and Rescue Rodents are intended, I've realised I can shrink the size of Rescue Rodents because it's super wide for no good reason so I will do that. Increasing Productivity, interestingly is not even close to my solution but I love your solution so much I'll leave it in. I think this level is OK to be flexible with its solutions.

As for The Ultimate Quest, glad it's more manageable, you still backrouted them all though. Serves me right for getting cute with spare Exploders I guess. But I suppose this is to be expected if I want to go to the insane ridiculousness of having an identical layout work for 4 levels.

With nobody being able to solve The Firing Squad for all this time, I do wonder if it's worth me trying to make it easier. There are lots of things I can change, but I think doing any of them might make things too obvious? I don't really want to comment too much on this before anybody else has solved it however.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v05 - 20/01/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on January 20, 2019, 05:08:27 PM
Before Akseli's last post I actually had a new version ready to go and was about to post it, fortunately this means this new version now has a load of backroute fixes in it to. There are also 4 more levels and the outstanding TODO list of broken levels has been cleared out, so getting closer to a fully fixed up pack.

Would be interesting to know with the further round of fixes and simplifications if The Ultimate Quest levels are in the correct order of difficulty. It's hard for me to tell, am tempted to swap  take 3 and take 4. Any terrain tweaks to this level of course have been applied to every version.

A number of levels have been changed to change the music track as some music tracks were quite close to each other with all the level shuffling around. If Neolemmix thinks a level has been updated but it's not listed in the changelog below, then it might have moved ranks or the music changed, or a typo fixed.

v05 changelog:
Spoiler

  • Fun
    • 5 - So Close... And Yet - Minor terrain tweaks.
    • 14 - The Ultimate Quest - Reduced Exploders + landscape tweaks in all versions.
  • Also Fun
    • 1 - Ancient Ruins - New Level
    • 6 - Snow Plows - Start area now is flat ground, and reduced save requirement by 1.
    • 8 - Tree Top Trouble - New Level
    • 9 - Impact Zone - Enough changes that this is essentially a whole different puzzle now.
    • 11 - Iron Awe - New Level
    • 12 - The Dire Docks - Raised height of first drop.
    • 13 - Jacob's Ladder - Many skill and terrain tweaks, plus a second trapdoor.
    • 14 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 2 - Reduced Climbers, Blockers, Exploders and Diggers, swapped a Miner for a Basher, increased save requirement + landscape tweaks in all versions.
  • Hard But Still Fun
    • 2 - Once You Pop You Can't Stop - New Level
    • 3 - Rock-A-Bye-Lemmy - Skill and terrain adjustments to fix major backroute.
    • 5 - Recession-Proof - Added some pipe.
    • 6 - Grasping at Straws - Essentially a new level, it's changed so much.
    • 13 - The Temple of Doom - Added a Builder, made a gap bigger.
    • 14 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - Added Builder, removed Exploder + landscape tweaks in all versions.
  • Not Fun
    • 1 - Tough Mudder - Added a big hole, and moved up a rank.
    • 3 - Mined Your Head - Many major changes.
    • 4 - Rising Condensation - Gap is slightly bigger.
    • 5 - Rescue Rodents - Shrunk the level. This does not materially change the solution.
    • 7 - Down The Tubes - Many major changes.
    • 10 - Offshore Rig - Added Steel.
    • 11 - Toil - Added more flamethrowers.
    • 12 - The High Ground - Removed a Builder, and changed the terrain by removing decoration and filling a gap.
    • 14 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 4 - Removed a Climber, a Blocker and a Digger, increased save requirement + landscape tweaks in all versions.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v05a - 20/01/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on January 20, 2019, 06:17:41 PM
A quick hotfix v05a, Not Fun 4 - Rising Condensation accidentally became too precise. I have adjusted a terrain piece by a single pixel.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v05a - 20/01/2019}
Post by: Akseli on January 20, 2019, 08:32:25 PM
Solutions for 20 levels, some for the updated levels and some for new ones. The rest of the levels I need to think a bit more.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v05a - 20/01/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on January 20, 2019, 10:21:10 PM
Thanks Akseli, that was fast! Although, I guess such speed is not a good sign, as the demos show. :(

Some of these backroutes are very embarrassing, like Toil, and Tree Top Trouble, but Mined Your Head made me WTF with that builder shenanigans, will have to think hard about what I'm going to do about that.

On the plus side, at least The Ultimate Quest, Take 2 was exactly intended!
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v06 - 02/03/2019}
Post by: kieranmillar on March 02, 2019, 10:14:10 PM
I've had some changes sitting on my computer for a while. As I went in to fix namida's backroute as discovered in the LOTY2018 thread, I decided I might as well push live all fixes done so far. v6 attached to the opening post.

v06 changelog:
Spoiler

  • All Ultimate Quest Levels have had one-way arrows added to them.
  • Also Fun

    • 1 - Ancient Ruins - Decrease Exploders to 3, minor terrain tweak near start, reduced save requirement to be a bit less difficult at this stage of the pack.
    • 6 - Snow Plows - Added 3 icicle traps near start
    • 11 - Iron Awe - Numerous tweaks to fix backroutes, including skill changes.
    • 12 - The Dire Docks - Raised the height of the bricks AGAIN
  • Hard But Still Fun

    • 2 - Once You Pop You Cant Stop - World's laziest backroute fix
    • 3 - Rock-A-Bye Lemmy - Bottom crowd is contained a bit lower and backroute miner no longer possible
    • 6 - Grasping at Straws - More steel at right exit
    • 13 - The Temple of Doom - Removed a basher and a shredder trap, made miner easier to execute with terrain tweak.
  • Not Fun

    • 6 - Brickin' 'Eck - Fixed namida's backroute
    • 7 - Down the Tubes - Slightly less tube on right-hand side.
    • 11 - Toil - Added even more flamethrowers on left side of level, plus some other minor tweaks.

Levels in a currently broken state awaiting fixing:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v06 - 02/03/2019}
Post by: Akseli on March 31, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Heyaa, my solutions for updated levels in v06 except for the Ultimate Quest levels for now. My solution for Brickin' 'eck was the same, but the namida-backroute fix broke my replay so I recorded a new one.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v06 - 02/03/2019}
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on March 09, 2021, 04:17:10 PM
Played this pack last month, and enjoyed it quite a lot. It was my first custom pack, so I wasn't used to all the advanced techniques (particularly the crazy bomber shenanigans) therefore it was no surprise that I couldn't solve a number of them without help.* (and I would never have got the solution for Rock Climbers, even though I originally solved Havoc 5 by using a simpler version of the same technique)

Highlights included The Burrowers and My First Crush (digger shenanigans), solving some ascent challenges that looked impossible at first sight (Jacob's Ladder, Spiral Staircase), Ultimate Quest 3 (the most epic solve for me) and solving The High Ground by using a route that I'm not sure is intended or not.

Overall it was an interesting brain burn with an introduction to advanced techniques, that is definitely worth a play if you like hard levels with the original themes. (I also swapped in the original 3 music sets, just to enhance the vanilla feel)

* I still don't know the solution for Recession-Proof (the hooooles) and Offshore Rig (1 skill short on every route I tried) due to the lack of a working replay. And while the solution for Ultimate Quest 4 was easy to figure out, myself and the replay found the execution to be impossible.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v06 - 02/03/2019}
Post by: Armani on March 09, 2021, 08:03:59 PM
I was in the mood for playing lemmings tonight.. and this old pack happen to got attention, so here're my solutions.
Nice levels overall not that hard but it definitely has some clever puzzles. :thumbsup:

Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v06 - 02/03/2019}
Post by: ericderkovits on March 09, 2021, 08:16:32 PM
Somehow I didn't have this pack downloaded. Missed this one somehow. Some nice music. Not too big a pack. Perfect for a LP
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v06 - 02/03/2019}
Post by: kaywhyn on March 09, 2021, 08:30:35 PM
It's in the "In development" board, that's why :P
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v07 - 05/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 05, 2023, 11:28:52 PM
It's been almost 4 years!!! Finally time to finish this pack off. More levels! More fixes! More ... Neolemmix version numbers!

I've upgraded the pack to the latest version of Neolemmix, 12.12.5, which is now required to play this. Please not you will also need to redownload the music, the tracks were renamed and also made much smaller in file size. (Delete the old ones from your music folder, they all used to be prefixed with jsmw_ but now it's qfk_ ).

Thanks you to Armani for another batch of demos, very helpful, got a lot of changes made based off of those.

I'm expecting more backroutes in my new levels, so please upload demos if you can. Please also let me know about the difficulty curve, it is extremely hard for me to gauge the difficulty of my own levels, and I'm worried the difficulty is all over the place here.

Download the latest version, and the updated music pack, from the opening post.

v07 changelog:
Spoiler
Fun
5 - So Close ... And Yet - Added steel
9 - Have a Bash at This - Minor changes to remove Blocker
10 - Well That's One Group Solved... - New level
13 (was 12) - Two's Company, Thirty's A Crowd - Minor terrain tweak
14 (was 13) - Just Dropping In - Terrain tweak

Also Fun

4 - Most Valuable Lemming - Terrain tweak
8 - Tree Top Trouble - Replaced with Rescue Rodents from Not Fun rank (Rescue Rodents unchanged, Tree Top Trouble deleted)
9 - Impact Zone - Replaced with new level, Crystal Cavern
11 - Temperature Drops - New level
12 (was 11) - Iron Awe - Terrain tweaks + major skill changes + lower save requirement
13 (was 12) - The Dire Docks - Major terrain changes

Hard But Still Fun
2 - Once You Pop You Can't Stop - Terrain tweaks + many less bombers + higher save requirement
5 - Recession Proof - Filled in terrain holes just in case you get unlucky with basher, no change to solution
8 - Pillars of the Community - Added steel
9 - Slow Motion - Redone top trapdoor area entirely
10 - Master Exploder - Remove a Bomber
14 - The Bridge Is Out - New level
15 (was 14) - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - Terrain change. This shouldn't impact the solutions of the other Ultimate Quest levels, although the same change has been made to them too.

Not Fun
3 - Mined Your Head - Replaced with new level, The Great Firewall
4 - Rising Condensation - Terrain tweak
5 - Rescue Rodents - Moved to 8 Also Fun position and replaced with new level, Crag David
7 - Down the Tubes - Major reworking
9 - The Firing Squad - Terrain changes
10 - Pain Factory - New level (I suspect if any of the new levels are riddled with backroutes, it'll be this one)
11 (was 10) - Offshore Rig - Minor terrain change
12 (was 11) - Toil - Major reworking
13 (was 12) - The High Ground - More steel and minor terrain tweaks
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v07 - 05/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 05, 2023, 11:52:58 PM
It just occurred to me that new level The Bridge Is Out in Hard But Still Fun rank has a completely trivial backroute. Sigh. Typical I would think of it as soon as I uploaded things. Well it's late today, I'll figure out a fix another day.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v08 - 05/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 06, 2023, 12:25:15 AM
Never mind, I couldn't help myself and made a quick fix. No changelog for v08, might as well avoid spoiling the change as barely anyone will have seen the old level anyway.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v08 - 05/02/2023}
Post by: WillLem on February 06, 2023, 02:51:08 AM
Replays for the Fun rank.

Great levels, these. Very well designed and aesthetically similar to L1 and Oh No!, which is always a nice touch. They're way more difficult for a first rank than I personally prefer, but at least some of them have alternative solutions and/or relatively lenient save requirements.

The puzzles are ace, some very interesting and clever ideas in here.

I'll come back and play the rest another time. Looking good so far :thumbsup:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v08 - 05/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 06, 2023, 09:08:18 AM
I played through the updated levels. (+ new levels)
You only need to check the replays for updated levels, I just take my own replays from above post for other levels.
A lot of them now seems properly patched out and some of them turns out to be my favourite levels.
I especially love Toil, High Ground and Crag David. :thumbsup:

And there're some backroutes you probably want to check out. 8-)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v09 - 10/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 10, 2023, 07:12:21 PM
Thanks both for the replays and feedback.

Attached to the opening post is version 9 with some more changes.

v09 changelog:
Spoiler

Fun
5 - So Close... And Yet - Added steel
13 - Two's Company, Thirty's A Crowd - Skill and terrain changes

Also Fun
9 - Crystal Cavern - Steel and Terrain tweaks
13 - The Dire Docks - Terrain tweak

Hard But Still Fun
8 - Pillars of the Community - Terrain and skill changes
9 - Slow Motion - Terrain tweaks
14 - The Bridge is Out - Terrain changes
15 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - Added Steel. This does not affect the solution of the other Ultimate Quest levels, but may disrupt their existing replays.

Not Fun
3 - The Great Firewall - Increased release rate
4 - Rising Condensation - Steel and terrain changes

There are some other levels not changed in this version that I'm still working on, or thinking of replacing. I'd like some easier levels and some of the really hard levels aren't cutting it for me anymore after looking back after 4 years, or they're broken in a way that I'm not prepared to fix.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v10 - 11/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 11, 2023, 07:43:50 PM
Still working on things, but won't have time for a little while so posting the changes I have so far. Still need to do something about some late levels in the last rank, Down The Tubes and Pain Factory, probably replace them.

v10 available to download in the opening post.

v10 changelog:
Spoiler

Fun
2 - Trail Trial - New level

(was 13) - Two's Company, Thirty's A Crowd - Moved to Also Fun 3

Also Fun
5 - Pillar Pairs - New Level
(was 11) - Temperature Drops - Removed level

(was 13) - The Dire Docks - Moved to Hard But Still Fun 2

Hard But Still Fun
(was 13) - The Temple of Doom - Moved to Not Fun 1
14 - The Bridge is Out - Terrain tweaks and increased save requirement

Not Fun
(was 9) - The Firing Squad - Removed level

15 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 4 - Fix typo in music track name
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v10 - 11/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 15, 2023, 06:50:11 AM
resolved all the updated levels 8-)
Now I probably solved most of them in intended ways. :laugh:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v11 - 15/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 15, 2023, 11:40:34 PM
Thanks again Armani. Your replays are very helpful. Might as well post what I have currently. I've finished cleaning up the first two ranks and replacing levels I wasn't super happy with. New levels in Fun rank are very easy but that's fine by me. I'm hoping the first two ranks are now considered done, barring any more backroutes and maybe some more levels I make might get moved into it if they are easy enough.

Levels I have my eye on replacing in the last two ranks are Slow Motion, The Dire Docks, Down the Tubes and Pain Factory.

v11 attached to the opening post as always.

v11 changelog
Spoiler
Fun
3 - Easy as 1 2 3 - Replaced with new level Oven-Ready Lemmings
4 - Diamond Tower - Replaced with new level Suds Law
9? - Humiliated By Burgundy - Removed Level


Reordered a lot of levels in this rank

Also Fun
3 - Two's Company, Thirty's a Crowd - Terrain changes (lol whoops) and moved back into Fun Rank
4 (was 5) - Pillar Pairs - Terrain tweak
5 - Blockers Go To Heaven - New level
11 - Crystal Cavern - Terrain change

Hard But Still Fun
15 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - Added steel. Added to all ultimate quests, but shouldn't impact the replays of the other ones.

Not Fun
1 - Temple of Doom - Increased number of lemmings (and save requirement accordingly) and terrain tweak
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v11 - 15/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 17, 2023, 05:25:10 AM
resolved updated ones 8-)
Spoiler

Oven-Ready Lemmings: Simple but nice level. The top route looks like it's going to work but actually it isn't.
Suds Law: can be trick if you don't see the builder turn around to send the second worker lemming.
Two's Company, Thirty's a Crowd: attached two solutions. Both spare a basher and save some more lemmings than required.
Pillar Pairs: Now I used all every non-permanent skill. :laugh:
Blockers Go To Heaven: I think I backrouted it.
Crystal Cavern: attached two solutions. First one is just a slight tweak of my previous solution, and the second one is a good old ceiling route solution. :laugh:
The Ultimate Quest, Take 3: attached two solutions. The second one looks intended :laugh: Using the bottom of the starting platform requires outside the box thinking and I like it. :laugh:
Temple of Doom: It's trickier now. I used all the skills and managed to save few more.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v12 - 17/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 17, 2023, 09:35:07 PM
Thanks once again Armani, getting very close to intended solutions on all levels now except for the 4 I still plan to replace. I'm good with solution 2 of The Ultimate Quest, Take 3, it's close enough, and besides these Ultimate quest levels are running out of ways to fix up issues without causing problems to the other Ultimate quest levels. After all these fixes I'm just happy finally someone went the right way :p

v12 changelog
Spoiler

Fun
14 - Two's Company, Thirty's A Crowd - Added Steel + widened final gap

Also Fun
4 - Pillar Pairs - Increased save requirement + Minor terrain change at start of level
5 - Blockers Go To Heaven - More Steel
11 - Crystal Cavern - Terrain changes + Extra Builder + Increased release rate (a set of risky changes, I hope it'll be fine?)

Hard But Still Fun
15 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - Steel tweak

Not Fun
1 - The Temple of Doom - 1 less Builder + Terrain changes + slight Release Rate increase
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v12 - 17/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 18, 2023, 07:37:38 AM
Here're my resolves :laugh:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v13 - 19/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 19, 2023, 10:41:51 PM
Well that Blockers go to Heaven backroute was embarassing, I should have definitely caught that one myself.

Your solution to Pillar Pairs was so completely unintended in every way, I love it, I've decided to keep it in, so no changes.

Version 13 attached ti the opening post.

v13 changelog:
Spoiler

Fun
14 - Two's Company, Thirty's a Crowd - Terrain change (second miner will die now)

Also Fun
5 - Blockers go to Heaven - Added Steel
11 - Crystal Cavern - Terrain tweak

Not Fun
1 - Temple of Doom - Terrain change (I went nuclear on the backroutes here, didn't want to make this particular change but looks like I have little choice)
8 - Down The Tubes - Replaced by brand new level with the same name
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v13 - 19/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 21, 2023, 04:31:50 AM
My solution spares a skill in the new level but other than that, it feels good 8-)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v14 - 21/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 21, 2023, 07:34:02 AM
Thanks again so much for all these replays and resolves, you're contributing so much to making this pack the best it can be, I can't thank you enough.

Over the last few days I did a deep review of the third rank like I had already done of the first two, and it turned out I'd forgotten about a bunch of backroutes you'd found in this rank, so here are many fixes, and a new level. There are still two levels left due a full replacement, The Dire Docks and Pain Factory.

v14 attached to the opening post.

v14 changelog:
Spoiler

Fun
10 - Wrong Tool for the Job - Made pillars shorter to make level a little less boring with lots of waiting for diggers and climbers. Removed Floaters. Fundamental solution is the same, but replays disrupted.

Also Fun
5 - Blockers Go To Heaven - More steel

Hard But Still Fun
6 - Recession-Proof - Purely cosmetic tweak, won't affect replays
7 - Grasping at Straws - Added skills and increased save requirement
8 - My First Crush - Terrain changes to make both more forgiving / less fiddly but also slightly more puzzley
10 - Slow Motion - Replaced with new level Drifting Away
11 - Master Exploder - Swapped positions in the rank with slot 2
12 - Spiral Staircase - Added second trapdoor to fix backroute

Not Fun
8 - Down the Tubes - Terrain changes and steel added
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v14a - 21/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 21, 2023, 10:04:13 PM
Apologies to the one person that downloaded v14. In the shower I had an idea of how to backroute Down the Tubes, so I've released a v14a with a fix.

v14a changelog:
Spoiler

Not Fun
8 - Down the Tubes - Terrain changes + added traps + made the trapdoor in the middle of the level the first one to release and changed start screen position
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v14a - 21/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 22, 2023, 06:57:07 AM
More replays incoming! 8-)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v14a - 21/02/2023}
Post by: ericderkovits on February 22, 2023, 08:28:23 PM
I noticed Fun 3 The Tree of Life and Also Fun 2 The Tree of Death have the same level ID as well as all level 15s Rank finishers. Each level should have a unique level ID.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v15 - 22/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 22, 2023, 11:10:52 PM
Thanks ericderkovits, this will be because originally I copied over the terrain by just resaving the level under a new file name, but that was years ago before you had the ability to random up a new level id. I've given all the repeat levels new ids. This will make existing replays think they're for the wrong level, but the levels are otherwise unchanged.

And thanks again Armani for more replays. Getting very close to finishing the pack now. Here's another new level, just one left to replace.

v15 changelog
Spoiler
Hard But Still Fun
7 - Grasping at Straws - Terrain changes
10 - Drifting Away - Terrain tweak
11 - The Dire Docks - Replaced with new level Boxed In

Not Fun
8 - Down the Tubes - Terrain changes + more traps + less Lemmings + added Basher
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v16 - 23/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 23, 2023, 11:25:41 PM
That's it! It's done! Barring any more backroute fixes, the pack is now officially done. All 60 levels that I plan to keep. I felt in the end that the central premise of Pain Factory deserved a second chance, so I ended up reworking it rather than entirely replace it.

I much prefer the final release to be the moment I stop working on a pack, so I won't be releasing the pack just yet. I'll still wait for people to play and find backroutes, but eventually I'll decide it's time for release, and if there are any more backroutes after then, then oh well.

I also did the in-depth review of the final rank. Only one backroute I'd missed that needed fixing this time.

A huge thank you to everyone who's played so far, all feedback has helped immensely.

v16 attached to the opening post.

v16 changelog
Spoiler
Not Fun
6 - Crag David - Increase save requirement (Armani's replay still works)
9 - Joint Construction - Added traps
10 Pain Factory - Entirely reworked and moved to position 12
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v16 - 23/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 24, 2023, 04:46:10 AM
I think we are just before the finishing line :laugh:
Spoiler

Boxed In - attached two solutions(top route/bottom route) Each of them are equally difficult imo but one of them spares some skills.
Crag David - basically same solution, I just realize that one builder is enough to catch the crowd hence I was able to save one additional builder than before.
Down the tube - I bet this is intended... But I've been wrong so many times before.. :laugh:
Drigting Away - used all skills and save some more than required. The final digger trick right next to the blocker to avoid the blocker's trigger area is quite advanced trick.
Grasping at Straws -  The first solution is painfully trivial. I have no idea why this is not the first solution I found. It seems like we both missed this obvious possibility :XD: Second solution is a lot better though.
Joint Construction - This also feels good. :laugh:
Pain Factory - A lot more challenging than before. My solution spares quite a lot of skills though.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v17 - 24/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 24, 2023, 07:48:51 PM
Thanks once again. Boxed In bottom solution and Down the Tubes are so very close that honestly I'm happy with your solutions, but they could have minor tweaks that pull you towards the exact intended solution without many issues, so I made those changes anyway. And of course fixed the top route backroute in Boxed In.

Grasping at Straws, I went in to make the obvious backroute fix, but then I thought, I swear I was going to make this change before. An experience of deja vu. I'm thinking maybe that I had intended to fix it all those years ago, I think Akseli highlighted this but I just decided I would replace the level instead. Fixing the other solution is easy enough with a time limit, but I'm unhappy about it. Honestly not very happy about this level any more, putting in the strict time limit makes it a little annoying, precise and fiddly. Maybe I wasn't super happy with every level after all! I'll have a think over the weekend, I might replace this one, but in the meantime the level is fixed.

Crag David I was happy with. It's fine to save the builder here, actually I think it would be better to enforce this, so I did. Also, your solution was never actually fully intended but I liked it and it was close enough, I've decided to make it the official solution, and removed a Blocker too accordingly.

v17 changelog:
Spoiler

Hard But Still Fun
7 - Grasping at Straws - Extra steel + add a 2:30 time limit (NOTE: may simply replace this level later)
10 - Drifting Away - Moved the exit and removed now unnecessary terrain
11 - Boxed In - Terrain and steel tweaks

Not Fun
6 - Crag David - Removed a Builder and a Blocker
8 - Down The Tubes - Terrain change
9 - Joint Construction - Terrain and steel changes
12 - Pain Factory - Terrain and steel changes, 1 less Blocker, 1 more in save requirement
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v18 - 25/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 25, 2023, 08:45:09 PM
I had another idea for a level and so Grasping at Straws got replaced, solving that particular issue.

v18 changelog:
Spoiler
Hard But Still Fun
7 - Grasping at Straws - Replaced with new level Star Trek
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v18 - 25/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 26, 2023, 05:58:58 AM
Here're my new replays for updated levels and the new level.
Probably Down the Tubes and Pain Factory are not still intended.
All other levels look okay at least :laugh:
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v19a - 26/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 26, 2023, 02:14:59 PM
Thanks once again.

I'm glad I kept trying to force more the intended solution from Down the Tubes as your latest solution was a backroute that's been available for a while. This level is increasingly looking like it's filled with backroute fixes, but at least with this change I think I've been able to back out the worst looking part, the bit at the trapdoor to the left. Now to be reminded the hard way why I need to put that back in ;)

Fixing Drifting Away is getting tough, as higher entropy was one of the core parts of this level, as it is disguising the primary puzzle of this level. So I'm hesitant to fix certain things. Having said that, your solution with that Blocker sure was cool, I have noted it down for a future level in another pack ;)

I went nuclear on the entropy on Joint Construction, oh well. I think the level will largely solve itself now, but we'll see.

There was a v19 uploaded, but while writing this I made a further change to Down the Tubes and somebody had downloaded v19 before I made my fix, so that's why there's now a v19a.

v19a changelog:
Spoiler
Hard But Still Fun
7 - Star Trek - Widened first gap, added a Builder, more lemmings, higher release rate
10 - Drifting Away - Steel and terrain changes

Not Fun
8 - Down the Tubes - Steel and terrain changes, another trapdoor. Increased number of Lemmings and maxxed out release rate, removed a Basher
9 - Joint Construction - Terrain change + added trap
12 - Pain Factory - Removed both Blockers and a Climber, increased save requirement, some minor terrain tweaks
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v19a - 26/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on February 27, 2023, 04:33:51 AM
More replays 8-)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v20 - 27/02/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on February 27, 2023, 10:50:44 PM
Thanks again.

I consider your solutions to Star Trek and Joint Construction to be acceptable, neither are exact but you hit the main points now and so I'm OK with them. Joint Construction, not my greatest work, I actually could make a change that forces something a little bit more intended but I don't think it's a level where trying to reach that solution would necessarily be more fun to solve so I'll leave it as is.

Down the Tubes, I'm beginning to think this particular level layout is not going to touch the main points I'm trying to enforce and all the fixes feel gimmicky and bad to me now, so this one's back to the drawing board, will find time to rework it over the coming week.

In the meantime, here's fixes for the other two levels. It's good that the list is shrinking at least. I was going to have trouble fixing Pain Factory but then discovered an optimization in my previous official solution that shaved off a builder and then my backroute fixing worked. Hooray. Oh yeah, I renamed this level too, not enough pain being produced to justify the name.

v20 changelog:
Spoiler
Hard But Still Fun
10 - Drifting away - Add terrain next to exit

Not Fun
12 - Pain Factory - Made level wider, added 2 Builders, terrain changes, and renamed to Lemming Sorting Factory
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v20 - 27/02/2023}
Post by: Armani on March 01, 2023, 04:26:40 AM
Only three more levels to go! :laugh:
I have some replays for the two updated levels. ;)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v21 - 01/03/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on March 01, 2023, 09:52:38 AM
Alright Armani, you did it, you bested me on Drifting Away. There is one change I could make that would stop all those solutions, but I really don't want to do it, so I've jotted down a note to revisit the idea another day, and I'm just going to accept Drifting Away as a multi-solution level.

Getting even closer to the end now.

v21 changelog:
Spoiler
Not Fun
8 - Down the Tubes - Completely new level

12 - Lemming Sorting Factory - Terrain changes near main trapdoor, reduced release rate
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v21 - 01/03/2023}
Post by: Armani on March 02, 2023, 05:57:02 AM
The factory level is looking good now :laugh: That's a really clever level.
I can roughly see how the intended solution of down the tube goes. I got two solutions and the second one feels somewhat promising to me. ;)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v22 - 02/03/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on March 02, 2023, 01:49:50 PM
Great, down to one level now. Your solution to Lemming Sorting Factory is more similar to my original intended solution so I'm cool with it.

I suspected these kinds of routes would be tried first with Down the Tubes and I couldn't get it to work myself, so I had some fixes planned if needed. This is the one I prefer most, and maybe will need to resort to plan B, but will be a bit upset if it still gets backrouted after Plan B. Your solution 2 is very cool though.

v22 changelog:
Spoiler
Not Fun
8 - Down the Tubes - Spread out some terrain plus other very minor terrain tweaks
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v22 - 02/03/2023}
Post by: Armani on March 02, 2023, 06:26:36 PM
And.... this could be the grand finale 8-)
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran {v22 - 02/03/2023}
Post by: kieranmillar on March 02, 2023, 06:54:27 PM
🎉 Yep that's exactly it. We're done now for the levels. Hooray! Again, thanks so much for all the testing, it helped so much. All I can think of left to do is a logo, if I can be bothered.

If anybody else is still testing, let me know, otherwise I'll release in a couple of days. I like to try and draw a line on updating level packs after a certain point, and the release feels like a good time to make that cutoff, so once its released, its not changing, and any further backroutes will just be there forever.
Title: Re: [Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran Development Thread
Post by: kieranmillar on March 04, 2023, 08:20:21 PM
And that's a wrap. See you all on the main board here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6184.0

No levels changed from the final upload here to the main release, but it got a logo graphic and credits, so you should grab the main download from the release thread anyway.