Lemmings Forums

So now that the voteoff for Original Lemmings is finished, it's time to do the Oh No! More Lemmings! one.

This will follow more or less the same format as the original did.

So, in each of six rounds, levels will be divided into sets according to the rules for that round. For the most part, this is just a matter of all levels within a round being rolled together, but a set may be re-rolled (together with the next set; and more if the problem persists after a few re-rolls) in the following cases:
* If the set does not contain levels from at least three difficulty ranks
* If 70% or more of the set comes from the same rank (rounded down)
* If the set contains more than three consecutive levels

In the fourth round, a set will be re-rolled if it does not contain levels from at least two difficulty ranks.

Obviously, these rules can be ignored if another result isn't possible. EG: If only Havoc levels make it to the 4th round, then of course the two difficulty ranks rule will be ignored.


Each round has a limit on the number of levels that qualify to proceed to the next round. However, this limit may be exceeded in certain situations, depending on the results. Here's how the "limit" and the results combine to determine the qualifying levels:
1) All levels in first place qualify, no matter what.
2) If the limit has not been reached, all levels in second place qualify, no matter what.
3) If the limit has not been reached, then 3rd, 4th and so on are considered, but *only* if (a) including them won't cause the limit to be exceeded, and (b) they have at least one vote (first round) or half as many votes as the first place levels (any other round).


There are two important changes I'm going to make here compared to the Orig one:
1) No discussion of any levels in the currently-being-voted set (or the set itself, beyond vague comments like "this is a hard decision") is allowed within the topic. You are free to discuss previous sets/rounds, though, apart from comments relating to the levels that are in the current set/round too. You're also free to discuss them elsewhere on the boards (or outside the boards altogether); just not in this topic.
2) Since this can now be edited/reset on the new board, I'll use the board's Poll Expiry option to determine the round's ending time. So, each set's voting will last for 2 days from when it's put up, except Round 6 which I will set to 3 days.


Round Breakdown

In all cases, when the sets cannot be divided equally, the remainder levels are added to the earlier rounds. EG: If a round says "divided into three equal sets" and there are 17 levels, the first two sets will have 6 levels each and the third set will have 5 levels. Likewise, if a round says "divided into sets of 5 levels" and there are 21 levels, the first set will get 6 levels. This does not affect the qualifying levels limit or the number of votes unless the round specifically states otherwise.

Round 1
Levels are broken into sets of 10 levels each. Three votes are allowed per user. Qualifying levels limit is 5.

Round 2
Levels are broken into sets of 5 levels each. Two votes are allowed per user. Qualifying levels limit is 3.

Round 3
Levels are broken into sets of 4 levels each. Two votes are allowed per user. Qualifying levels limit is 2.

Round 4
Levels are broken into three sets. Two votes are allowed per user. Qualifying levels limit is 2.

Round 5
Levels are in a single set. Two votes are allowed per user. Qualifying levels limit is 2.

Round 6
Levels are in a single set. One vote is allowed per user. This round determines the winner.

This voteoff has now finished. See attached XLS file for round breakdowns and results.

Voting for the first set is now open. :)

Aw man, I only just beat Lemmings 1 finally, so I'm still stuck on Crazy 16.

I really like compact levels like **removed by admin**, it's both really fun to solve and I just like looking at it. :D

Spoiler alert: All the garbage "Tame" levels will fall out at stage 1  :D

Quote from: Tiduas on January 10, 2015, 10:28:42 AM
I really like compact levels like **removed by admin**, it's both really fun to solve and I just like looking at it. :D

Please don't discuss levels in the current set in this topic. It's fine to post about them after the set ends. :)

Quote from: IchoTolot on January 10, 2015, 12:26:03 PM
Spoiler alert: All the garbage "Tame" levels will fall out at stage 1  :D

Some of them are kinda fun...

Maybe calling them "garbage" was way too hard from me, but nevertheless they are all nearly the same "use ~three skills and win" type and even for the first difficulty this is a bit underwhelming. If the first 8 or so are like this ok, but 20...  Furthermore the gap from "Tame" to "Crazy" is way too high, because "Tame" doesn't prepare you enough for the things which will come.

Based on the level order in the data files, I think it's very likely that ONML was originally intended to only have the hard levels (it was intended as an "addon pack", after all), and Tame was tagged on as an extra rank of easy levels as a last-minute thought. This is because the other four ranks' levels are randomly scattered throughout the data files, but Tame's levels are all at the end and in the exact same order as they are in-game.

Indeed, something similar (but on a much smaller scale) is seen with one of my packs, specifically Lemmings Plus II. The regular levels are all there in correct order; but the secret levels were a very late addition and as such, they don't follow on from the ranks' normal levels, but rather, all 5 of them are at the end of the data files (at least in the traditional Lemmix version). The same is not true for the bonus pack, which was intended to have them from the start.

Quote from: namida on January 10, 2015, 01:21:06 PM

Quote from: Tiduas on January 10, 2015, 10:28:42 AM
I really like compact levels like **removed by admin**, it's both really fun to solve and I just like looking at it. :D

Please don't discuss levels in the current set in this topic. It's fine to post about them after the set ends. :)

Sorry about that one, completely missed that part of the rules!  :P

Qualifying levels from this set are:

Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Wild 15 "THE SILENCE OF THE LEMMINGS"
Wicked 01 "LeMming ToMato KetchUp fAcilitY"
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Havoc 19 "Looks a Bit Nippy Out There"

Next set is up. :) Remember, don't discuss levels from the current set while it's in progress; however it's fine to discuss levels from the last set now.

Qualifying levels are:

Wild 01 "PoP YoR ToP!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 17 "Where Lemmings Dare"

Next round is up. :)

Quote from: namida on January 14, 2015, 09:47:36 PM
Qualifying levels are:

Wild 01 "PoP YoR ToP!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 17 "Where Lemmings Dare"

Next round is up. :)

that awful level made it??  :P

Quote from: möbius on January 14, 2015, 10:50:19 PM

Quote from: namida on January 14, 2015, 09:47:36 PM
Qualifying levels are:

Wild 01 "PoP YoR ToP!!!"

that awful level made it??  :P

I totally agree with that, really didn't like that level when I played it. :P But that's the fun part about the voting, to see the difference in taste of everyone ^^

I was more surprised about Havoc 14 having more votes than Havoc 10 personally.

I think I remember voting Wild 1. When I was younger I always liked exploding lemmings to see if they can get down to the bottom towards the exit. It's very random where the bombers end up without blockers, and that's what made it so addicting.

I voted both Havoc 10 and Havoc 14 in that last round. They're both great concepts for 1-minute challenges, and two very different ones at that.

Quote

Quote from: namida on January 15, 2015, 12:34:57 AM
I was more surprised about Havoc 14 having more votes than Havoc 10 personally.

Personally, I found Havoc 10 a bit annoying (didn't get a Vote from me), while Havoc 14 is just a nice multitasking level, so my Vote between these two went to Havoc13

Havoc 10 has a couple of interesting challenge solutions: save the max possible, or solve without changing the release rate. But the main solution is one of the easiest and least interesting in the game, the only tricky part is given away by the level title, and it's in the last difficulty rating. So yeah, not winning my vote  :P

Qualifying levels are:

Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wicked 10 "Temple of Love"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Havoc 02 "Be more than just a number"

Next round is up. :)

Quote from: Proxima on January 15, 2015, 09:06:49 PM
Havoc 10 has a couple of interesting challenge solutions: save the max possible, or solve without changing the release rate. But the main solution is one of the easiest and least interesting in the game, the only tricky part is given away by the level title, and it's in the last difficulty rating. So yeah, not winning my vote  :P

I realize I'm the only one with this complaint, but do people really have to persist in referring to levels as "Havoc 10" "Mayhem 14"? Why can't you just say the level title; the more complex, memorable name given to levels to make them easier to refer to, to give them more of an identity, to make them more memorable.
Every time I read a post like this if I really want to know what your  talking about I have to drag open Lemmix or look at some list and find the level you're talking about.

Quote from: möbius on January 17, 2015, 10:51:13 PM
I realize I'm the only one with this complaint, but do people really have to persist in referring to levels as "Havoc 10" "Mayhem 14"? Why can't you just say the level title; the more complex, memorable name given to levels to make them easier to refer to, to give them more of an identity, to make them more memorable.
Every time I read a post like this if I really want to know what your  talking about I have to drag open Lemmix or look at some list and find the level you're talking about.

You're not alone. I completely agree with you that it's hard to know which level people are talking about when they just say the rank and number.

Anyways, on that last round, "Five Alive" is actually related to gangs(the whole thing goes "five alive, six down" or something like that, but I doubt that DMA was gang-related :D)

As well as voting for the two front-runners this time, I voted for Tame 8, because it's at least a little interesting if you do it with builders only, and, well.... this wasn't a great batch and I just couldn't find any other level I liked  :P

Qualifying this set are:

Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wicked 06 "PoP TiL YoU DrOp!"
Havoc 04 "The race against cliches"

Next set is up. :)

Aww, Down and Out Lemmings lives up to its title :( :P

Quote from: Clam on January 20, 2015, 07:08:13 AM
Aww, Down and Out Lemmings lives up to its title :( :P

To be fair, it did VERY well for a Tame level. :) It was tied with two other levels; had it been tied with only one, it would've made it through.

Qualifying levels are:

* Wild 03 "Lemming Rhythms"
* Wild 05 "Lemming Head"
* Wild 07 "You Take the High Road"
* Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
* Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a situation"

Next round is up. :)

Suggestion to make the level lists more readable: Instead of making separate lists for the levels that qualified, how about just bolding the ones that qualified from each round? That way it's easier to see which levels they beat out.

Sounds like a good idea. I'll do that when I get home.

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 01 "Quote: "That`s a good level""
Wicked 02 "Inroducing SUPERLEMMING"
Wicked 08 "A TOWERING PROBLEM"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Havoc 08 "Lemming about town"

Next set's up. :)

Qualifying for the next round are:

Crazy 02 "Dolly Dimple"
Wild 13 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
Wicked 17 "Down the tube"
Havoc 03 "It`s the price you have to pay"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"

Next round is up.

Qualifying levels from this set are:

Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Wild 11 "Mutiny On The Bounty"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"

Next set is up.

Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method" is definitly my favorite "Oh No" level. Back in the day it took a long time to solve, but the solution is really nice!

Quote from: IchoTolot on January 31, 2015, 04:44:15 PM
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method" is definitly my favorite "Oh No" level. Back in the day it took a long time to solve, but the solution is really nice!

I'm not sure about favorite - it's hard to decide as I haven't played OhNo as much as Orig. But Havoc 5 is definitely up there; it's great.

Shit, forgot about this for a bit...

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 07 "And now, the end is near..."
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Wicked 05 "Chill out!"
Havoc 12 "It`s all a matter of timing"

Next set is up. This is the last one from the first round... :)

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 14 "Time waits for no Lemming"
Wild 16 "Take care, Sweetie"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"

That's the end of Round 1. I'll have the new round up shortly. :)



Some interesting points on this round:
- A total of 43 levels qualified to the next round.
- Not a single Tame level made it through. (Though Tame 1 and Tame 13 both came very close.)
- 7 Crazy levels made it through.
- 10 Wild levels made it through.
- 12 Wicked levels made it through.
- 14 Havoc levels made it through.
- The longest string of consecutive levels that made it through is 4 levels; there are four sets of such (Wicked 5-8, Havoc 2-5, Havoc 7-10, Havoc 16-19).
- Wicked 20 is the only final level of a rank that made it through.
- Excluding Tame (which didn't get any levels), Havoc 1 is the only first level of a rank that didn't make it through.
- Again excluding Tame, level 7 and level 10 of every rank made it through.

Alright, it's up now. :)

Quote from: namida on February 08, 2015, 05:53:14 AM- Not a single Tame level made it through. (Though Tame 1 and Tame 13 both came very close.)

I was definitely secretly hoping Tame 13, with this infamous epic 1-builder 100% solution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by3MunMkw1M), might make it through at least first round.  Oh well.  In fact after that fateful round, I think I started to vote for a Tame level on each and all subsequent rounds, just to see if at least one Tame level might make through.  (And in all honesty, some rounds didn't really have 3 deserving candidates for me anyhow.)

I'll agree. There was one round where I could only find two levels worth voting for. But IIRC, the only Tame levels I voted for were 1 and 20.

Nooo, I was secretly hoping that "No problemming!" would advance further, I really liked the surprise of that level.

I think the problem with levels like that is that they're an amusing twist the first time you play them, but offer virtually no replay value whatsoever - only one solution, and it's one that you'll very easily remember.

Qualifying levels are:

Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 10 "Temple of Love"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"

Next round is up.

Qualifying levels this round are:

Wicked 05 "Chill out!"
Havoc 04 "The race against cliches"

Next round is up.

From IRC:

Quote[17:25:48]   <Akseli> namida42: I checked the text file from the first round and there was not the vote amounts per section, so I guess that you aren't writing up the whole scoreboard after all, I would've been interested to see how the levels made between each other in every section, and I mean, I could have done it myself but I don't know when you're ending every round, but maybe that's not a big deal, no one else didn't express their interest in this :b

A full scoreboard (say, a list of levels, with a count of votes received per round) would be amazing to have. "[Level] got to round x, but didn't even win its heat in round 1! Must've been a tough draw..."

BUT: Don't publicise vote counts until the whole voteoff is finished! People might be influenced by counts from earlier rounds when voting in later rounds.

Qualifying levels this round are:

Wild 11 "Mutiny On The Bounty"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"

Next set is up. :)

I've extended the time of this set by about 12 hours due to the forum downtime earlier today. I doubt it'll matter, but just in case.

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Wicked 02 "Inroducing SUPERLEMMING"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"

Next set is up.

When is the next round coming up?

Sorry! It's up now. :)

Qualifying levels from this round are:

Havoc 02 "Be more than just a number"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 07 "And now, the end is near..."
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"

Next set is up. :)

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 02 "Dolly Dimple"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a situation"

Next set is up. :) This is the last set for Round 2. :D

Although it's still a bit of a way to go, I'd like some suggestions on how to handle the remaining rounds (in terms of Lemmix players, it'd be X91/92, H94, Covox, Prima, and most (but not all) of Extra). Should these each be done seperately, or should some be combined?

If combined, how? My thoughts are that Covox and Prima should be combined. Beyond that, should X91/92 be combined with H94, or with Covox/Prima? Or, should X91/92 + H94 be combined into one voteoff, and Covox + Prima + Extra into another? Or, perhaps, should *all* of these just be combined into one massive voteoff (though I think this one might be a bit too large)? Perhaps X91/92 + H94 + Covox + Prima in one, and Extra in another?

The current set (2-8) was an extremely difficult decision: out of five levels, four I really wanted to vote for. And it looks like both the ones I wanted to vote for but didn't will be eliminated :(

Thematically, it makes most sense to group X91/92 with H94; there's enough levels there for a voteoff, though perhaps with one fewer round. Covox + Prima combined would only be 24 levels, much smaller than other voteoffs. How many levels are in Extra? If Covox + Prima + Extra would be of comparable size to the L1 and ONML voteoffs, I would do that.

For Extra, I was only going to consider the unique-to-Genesis levels (not including the two "test map" levels in Fun or the 2P levels) and the random levels from various other versions (basically those in the "Others" rank); not the 2-player levels, or the PSP or Sega levels (since they don't originally come from a mechanics-compatible (or nearly-compatible) version of Lemmings). This still comes to a total of 116 levels.

X91/92 + H94 + Covox + Prima = 94 levels, which brings that combination to also a comparable size.

Wow, I had no idea it was that many. In that case, it seems like Extra as one voteoff and the others combined as another is the way to go.

Yep. 45 unique Genesis version levels from Fun/Tricky/Taxing/Mayhem, 30 Present levels, 30 Sunsoft levels, and 11 levels in the "Other" rank (4 from Budget Amiga, 2 from Bookclub Amiga, 1 from an Amiga demo, 1 from Mac, 1 from a Mac demo, 1 from SNES, and 1 from the Amiga version of H94.)

The voting closed quite some time ago. Should we start the next section?

Indeed. Thanks for the reminder. I'll get onto that now.

Qualifying levels from this set are:

Crazy 14 "Time waits for no Lemming"
Wild 13 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"

Give me a few minutes to prepare the next round. :)

Okay, new round is up. :)

Now it truly begins, all the hard choices that really makes you think before you vote...

Agreed with that!

Qualifying levels are:

Havoc 04 "The race against cliches"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"

Next round is up. :)

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 07 "And now, the end is near..."
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"

Next round is up. :)

Ok, something seems off [current poll--round 3 section 3].  I could swear I just voted for Crazy 14 and Wicked 2, but I'm not seeing any Wicked 2 votes in the results right now.  Also, 4 members voted and there are exactly 4 votes total now?  ??? :lix-suspicious:

[edit: okay, I tried it on another computer and I do see correct results now.  :lem-mindblown: weird...]

I had similar problems at one point and the culprit turned out to be one of those text-to-hyperlink browser extensions, strangely.

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 14 "Time waits for no Lemming"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"

Next set is up. :)

Wow  :(  How can you expect me to decide between these four?

I didn't find it too hard myself. I won't name levels due to topic rules, but I had one that was a very easy choice, and one that I wasn't even remotely considering. The other two were a bit tricky to decide between, I must admit...

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Wild 13 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"

Next set is up. :)

Qualifying levels are:

Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"

Will start sorting out the next round now.

New round is up.

Qualifying levels are:

Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"

(Aww. I was hoping to see Crazy 7 go a bit further than that... but in general this was a very hard round to pick for me!)

Next set is up. :)

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 14 "Time waits for no Lemming"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"

Next set is up.

Quote from: namida on April 06, 2015, 12:39:58 PMHavoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"

Really? :lem-mindblown: Did anyone vote for this just because of the funny title? :-\ ;P

I voted for it because I actually really like the level. Though it was a tough decision between that one and "The race against cliches" for my second vote; my first vote going to "Time waits for no Lemming" was a very easy choice, and I didn't even consider "Onward and Upward" (I really don't know what people see in it...)

Not saying the name isn't amusing, though. :P

Quote from: ccexplore on April 06, 2015, 01:10:05 PM

Quote from: namida on April 06, 2015, 12:39:58 PMHavoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"

Really? :lem-mindblown: Did anyone vote for this just because of the funny title? :-\ ;P

this is one of my favorite levels.
The title was accurate in the old days I suppose, but with today's precise technology this levels not hard to execute at all.

Quote from: namida on April 06, 2015, 01:14:29 PMI didn't even consider "Onward and Upward" (I really don't know what people see in it...)

I must admit to a soft spot for that level because its max% challenge inspired one of my favourite of my own levels, Thomas the Climber  :lix-tongue:

Qualifying levels are:

Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"

Round 5 is now up. :)

Just as a heads up, I've already prepared the first rounds for the next voteoff (once this one finishes), which will be a six-way voteoff between the four Xmas/Holiday games plus Covox and Prima. The decision to combine them comes from that the total number of levels they have combined is roughly comparable to the number of levels in any of the other voteoffs. So, if you need to refresh your memory of them, now's as good a time as any to start. :P

You can get them here:
http://www.neolemmix.com/old/lemmix.html

Or if you prefer NeoLemmix:
http://www.neolemmix.com/old/neolemmixplayers.html

In both cases X91 + X92 are in a single combined player, as are H93 + H94 (the former because even combined they only have 6 levels, the latter becuase in the original DOS versions too H94 contained all the H93 levels). If using the NeoLemmix version, please note that the voteoffs are based off the DOS versions while the NeoLemmix levels are based off the Amiga versions, which means Flurry 8 (H93) is an entirely different level. The regular Lemmix players are indeed based off the DOS versions.

So, our two levels that go through to the final round are:

Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"

But which one will win...? It's time to find out! :D

Well, WE HAVE OUR WINNER!

Havoc 5 - "There's madness in the method" has been voted the best level in Oh No! More Lemmings!, with twice as many votes in the finals as the second-place level (Wicked 3 "This Corrosion")!

(http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/ohno/0505.png)

Sooner or later, we'll see how it fares against Mayhem 20 from the original, as well as two other levels from the yet-to-be-held voteoffs.

Altough none of my favorites won it still was a entertaining voteoff. Thanks for arranging it Namida! :)

Ah, my favorite level won! :8():
Took me half a year to solve it back in the day.

Quote from: IchoTolot on April 15, 2015, 04:35:54 PM
Ah, my favorite level won! :8():
Took me half a year to solve it back in the day.

me too. :) well I don't remember exactly how long but it was one of the many of ONML that I used the "cheat" feature on with WinLems when I was younger. I only solved it when I came back to the game quite a few years later.

If you haven't seen it I recommend a tribute level by geoo called "There's a method in the madness" from his first pack.

Somewhere I said that ONML is filled with a bunch of filler levels that are tedious or boring, which is true but there are definitely some gems in here. Quite a few levels of which at the time were far harder than anything in OL.

I didn't have too much trouble with it to be honest. Don't get me wrong, I thought (and still think) it's a great level, but "Lemming About Town" was the one that held me up for quite a while in ONML (though not NEARLY as much as Save Me from L1).

L1 and ONML voteoffs are over, I can reveal my speculations without affecting the results at all. I thought that "No added colours or lemmings" was the biggest front runner in L1 voteoff "It's hero time!" behind it, but during the voteoff I started to ponder if "It's hero time!" would actually be the winner due to multiple solutions nature.

"This Corrosion" was the clear front runner in ONML voteoff, I predicted that that would have won it. At the beginning of the voteoff, the only levels I could think of challenging "This Corrosion" were "ROCKY VI" and "There's madness in the method". Quite a rise from Havoc 5 all the way to the victory in the end.

Aaaaand here's the topic that gave most hints for my predictions. (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1071.msg37383#msg37383) This linked post even collected the previous data from the topic.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and my favourite levels were "No added colours or lemmings" and "This Corrosion", I voted for those every round. My taste hasn't been influenced by Lemmings forums, those two levels were my favourites already over 10 years ago, and when discovering this community, I was happy to notice that other people respected those levels too! :)