Lemmings Forums

Since we started reviewing the Tame levels, it crossed my mind that there is only one skill that you're forced to use throughout all of Tame, that you can't pass the level without using - the builder on Tame 13. Aside from this one builder, you can avoid using each type of skill on every level, by using different skills instead. So, I would like to know: how does this situation look across the whole game?

Now for a (slightly technical) definition: The set of "skills you can't live without" on a level is the set of skills that is common to all solutions to the level - without using every skill in this set, you can't possibly beat the level.

EDIT: We now have a score for every level. Well done guys! :thumbsup:

(Total skill counts in brackets.)


Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 digger
2: 1 floater
3: 3 blockers
4: 10 climbers, 1 miner
5: 3 bashers
6: 1 bomber
7: 2 builders
13: 3 diggers
15: 2 builders
16: 4 builders
18: 5 bombers
19: 2 builders
20: 1 builder
28: 4 builders
All others: none.
Total: 10 climbers, 1 floater, 6 bombers, 3 blockers, 15 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 4 diggers. (43, 1.43 per level)

Tricky
1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builders
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders
8: 8 builders
10: 4 builders
12: 1 floater
13: 3 builders
14: 4 builders
15: 3 bombers
16: 4 bombers
17: 2 bombers
18: 1 digger
19: 1 climber, 1 builder
21: 3 builders
23: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher
24: 2 builders
25: 2 builders
27: 1 builder
28: 1 builder
All others: none.
Total: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 9 bombers, 49 builders, 1 basher, 6 diggers. (68, 2.3 per level)

Taxing
1: 6 builders, 1 basher
2: 1 builder
3: 6 builders
4: 1 builder
5: 3 builders
6: 1 basher
7: 1 bomber, 5 builders, 1 basher
8: 3 builders, 3 bashers
10: 2 builders
11: 7 builders
12: 2 builders
13: 1 basher, 1 miner
14: 17 builders
16: 7 builders
18: 1 builder
19: 5 bombers
22: 1 builder
23: 12 builders
24: 5 builders
25: 3 builders
26: 5 builders
27: 6 builders
28: 1 floater, 3 builders
29: 1 builder
30: 7 diggers
All others: none.
Total: 1 floater, 6 bombers, 97 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner, 7 diggers. (119, 3.97 per level)

Mayhem
1: 1 floater, 15 builders
2: 6 builders
3: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
4: none
5: 4 blockers, 5 builders
6: 6 builders
7: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 3 diggers
8: 3 builders
9: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 1 floater, 5 builders
11: 9 diggers
12: 1 builder
13: 1 builder
14: 1 builder
15: 4 builders
16: 1 basher, 1 digger
17: 1 builder
18: 3 builders
19: 2 bombers, 7 builders
20: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
21: 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
22: 6 builders
23: 4 builders, 1 basher
24: 3 bashers
25: 4 builders
26: 2 bombers
27: 2 bashers, 1 digger
28: 5 builders, 1 basher
29: 3 blockers, 10 builders, 1 digger
30: 8 builders
Total: 2 climbers, 23 floaters, 4 bombers, 8 blockers, 108 builders, 13 bashers, 3 miners, 17 diggers. (178, 5.94 per level)

Total for Lemmings: 14 climbers, 26 floaters, 25 bombers, 11 blockers, 269 builders, 24 bashers, 5 miners, 34 diggers. (408, 3.41 per level)


Oh No! More Lemmings

Tame
13: 1 builder
All others: none.
Total: 1 builder. (1, 0.05 per level)

Crazy
1: 1 blocker
2: 3 builders, 1 digger
3: 2 bombers
4: 4 builders
5: 7 builders
6: 1 climber, 5 builders, 2 diggers
7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
8: 2 builders
9: none
10: 7 builders, 1 basher
11: 1 builder
12: 2 builders, 1 basher
13: 1 miner, 1 digger
14: 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
15: 2 builders
16: 1 builder
17: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
18: 2 builders
19: 1 builder
20: 5 builders
Total: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 2 bombers, 3 blockers, 52 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner, 6 diggers. (74, 3.70 per level)

Wild
1: none
2: 5 builders
3: 6 builders
4: 6 builders, 1 basher
5: 2 bombers, 3 builders
6: 1 builder
7: 3 builders, 2 bashers
8: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder
9: none
10: 3 builders, 1 basher
11: 2 builders
12: 2 builders, 1 basher
13: 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
14: none
15: 1 builder, 1 basher
16: 1 climber, 4 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 2 bombers, 3 builders
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders
Total: 13 climbers, 10 floaters, 6 bombers, 53 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner. (90, 4.50 per level)

Wicked
1: 1 bomber
2: 5 builders, 1 miner, 5 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 3 builders
5: 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 digger
6: none
7: 1 blocker, 4 bombers
8: 1 climber, 4 bombers, 1 builder
9: 9 builders
10: 1 blocker, 7 builders
11: 2 builders
12: 2 blockers, 6 builders, 1 miner
13: 7 builders
14:  none
15: 1 floater, 6 builders
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder
17: 4 builders
18: 2 builders
19: 5 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 builder
Total: 1 climber, 1 floater, 10 bombers, 4 blockers, 63 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 6 diggers. (89, 4.45 per level)

Havoc
1: 5 builders
2: 9 builders, 1 digger
3: 1 builder, 1 basher
4: 1 builder, 1 basher
5: 2 climbers, 2 bashers, 2 miners
6: 1 miner
7: 4 builders
8: 1 climber, 4 builders, 3 miners
9: 13 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners
10: 1 builder
11: 8 builders
12: 9 builders
13: 3 builders
14: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers
15: 5 builders
16: 3 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 8 builders
19: 2 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 climber, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 2 miners
Total: 18 climbers, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 74 builders, 9 bashers, 11 miners, 4 diggers. (124, 6.2 per level)

Total for ONML: 34 climbers, 13 floaters, 25 bombers, 7 blockers, 243 builders, 25 bashers, 15 miners, 16 diggers. (378, 3.78 per level)


Holiday Lemmings

Xmas 91 (first two levels only)
1: none
2: 1 builder
Total: 1 builder. (1, 0.50 per level)

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: none
3: 7 builders
4: 2 climbers, 9 builders, 3 diggers
Total: 2 climbers, 16 builders, 1 basher, 3 diggers. (22, 5.5 per level)

Flurry
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 3 builders
13: 2 builders
14: 1 builder
15: 1 builder
16: 2 builders, 1 basher
All others: none.
Total: 14 builders, 2 bashers. (16, 1.00 per level)

Blitz
1: 3 builders
2: 9 builders
3: 1 digger
4: 1 basher, 1 builder
5: 6 builders
6: none
7: 1 builder
8: 2 builders, 1 basher
9: 8 builders
10: 2 builders
11: 8 builders
12: 1 bomber, 1 digger
13: 8 builders
14: none
15: 8 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 1 basher
Total: 8 climbers, 1 floater, 3 bombers, 49 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers. (67, 4.19 per level)

Frost
6: 1 blocker, 4 builders
7: 5 builders
9: 2 builders
10: 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 diggers
11: 1 builder
12: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
13: 1 builder
14: 3 builders, 1 basher
15: 1 builder, 2 bashers
16: 3 builders
All others: none.
Total: 1 blocker, 24 builders, 6 bashers, 3 diggers. (34, 2.12 per level)

Hail
1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher
2: 3 bombers
3: 9 builders
4: none
5: 6 floaters, 6 builders
6: none
7: 13 builders
8: 5 builders
9: 9 builders, 1 basher
10: 2 builders
11: 3 builders, 1 miner
12: 6 builders
13: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
14: 10 builders
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 10 floaters, 1 builder
Total: 1 climber, 17 floaters, 3 bombers, 67 builders, 5 bashers, 1 miner, 3 diggers. (97, 6.18 per level)

Total for Holiday Lemmings: 11 climbers, 18 floaters, 6 bombers, 1 blocker, 171 builders, 18 bashers, 1 miner, 11 diggers. (237, 3.73 per level)


GRAND TOTAL: 59 climbers, 57 floaters, 56 bombers, 19 blockers, 684 builders, 67 bashers, 22 miners, 62 diggers. (1026, 3.54 per level)

Lemmings PSP

1: 1 climber
2: 1 climber, 1 floater
3: 1 climber, 1 basher
4: 2 bombers, 2 blockers
5: 3 builders, 2 miners
6: 1 builder, 4 bashers
7: 4 builders, 3 bashers
8: 5 climbers, 2 builders
9: 5 builders
10: 2 builders, 2 bashers
11: 2 bashers, 1 digger
12: 2 bashers
13: 5 bombers
14: 5 climbers, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 builder, 1 basher
17: 2 builders
18: 1 climber, 4 builders, 2 bashers
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders
21: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 2 builders, 3 bashers
22: 6 builders, 2 miners
23: 7 builders, 3 bashers
24: 2 climbers, 3 bashers, 2 diggers
25: 3 diggers
26: 1 blocker, 2 bashers
27: 4 builders
28: 1 floater, 3 builders
29: 3 builders, 2 bashers
30: 2 builders
31: 5 builders
32: 1 builder
33: 1 floater, 5 builders, 1 basher
34: 10 climbers, 9 blockers
35: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
36: 1 builder, 1 digger
Total: 28 climbers, 3 floaters, 7 bombers, 13 blockers, 72 builders, 33 bashers, 6 miners, 9 diggers (171, 4.75 per level)

Covox Lemmings

Fun 1: none
Fun 2: 1 builder
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 2: 21 climbers, 1 bomber, 2 builders
Taxing 1: 7 builders, 1 basher
Taxing 2: 7 builders
Mayhem 1: 2 builders
Mayhem 2 : none
Total: 21 climbers, 1 bomber, 20 builders, 1 basher (43, 5.375 per level)

Prima Publishing Lemmings

Fun 1: none
Fun 2: 1 climber, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
Fun 3: none
Fun 4: 2 builders, 1 basher
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 2: 6 bombers
Tricky 3: 1 builder
Tricky 4: 1 digger
Taxing 1: 11 builders
Taxing 2: none
Taxing 3: 2 bashers, 1 digger
Taxing 4: 2 blockers, 2 builders
Mayhem 1: 1 digger
Mayhem 2: 5 builders
Mayhem 3: 1 blocker, 3 builders
Mayhem 4: 7 builders

Total: 1 climber, 0 floaters, 6 bombers, 4 blockers, 33 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 4 diggers

3D Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 turner
2: 2 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 1 turner, 2 diggers
5: 7 turners
6: 4 bombers
7: 1 bomber, 1 basher, 2 climbers
8: 2 turners, 1 builder
9: 5 turners
10: 2 builders
11: 2 blockers, 4 turners
12: 1 turner, 5 bombers
13: 13 turners, 2 builders, 20 floaters
14: 6 turners
15: 4 turners, 1 basher
16: 4 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
17: 1 blocker, 2 bashers, 1 floater
18: 4 turners, 8 miners
19: 2 turners
20: 4 turners, 1 builder
Total: 3 blockers, 58 turners, 10 bombers, 10 builders, 4 bashers, 8 miners, 5 diggers, 2 climbers, 21 floaters

Tricky
1: 2 turners, 8 climbers
2: 2 blockers
3: 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber, 1 floater
4: 3 turners, 2 builders, 1 miner
5: 1 turner, 2 bombers
6: 2 blockers, 5 turners, 2 builders, 1 basher
7: 2 turners, 3 builders
8: None
9: 4 turners
10: 5 turners, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
11: 14 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
12: 5 turners, 11 builders
13: 6 turners
14: 3 turners, 1 builder
15: 2 turners, 2 builders, 1 digger
16: 3 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
17: 4 turners, 1 bomber, 1 climber
18: 3 bashers, 1 digger, 1 climber
19: 2 turners, 1 builder
20: 5 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
Total: 4 blockers, 66 turners, 4 bombers, 30 builders, 10 bashers, 2 miners, 4 diggers, 11 climbers, 1 floater

Taxing
1: 6 turners
2: 1 blocker, 5 turners, 2 bashers, 3 climbers
3: 4 bombers, 4 builders, 4 bashers
4: 1 turner, 5 builders, 4 bashers
5: 5 turners, 1 builder
6: 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 floater
7: 5 turners, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 1 digger
8: 7 turners, 4 bashers
9: 6 turners
10: 1 turner
11: 3 turners
12: 4 builders, 1 basher
13: 1 blocker, 2 turners, 1 builder
14: 5 turners
15: None
16: 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder
17: None
18: 4 turners, 3 bombers
19: 1 builder, 2 miners
20: 1 turner, 3 builders
Total: 2 blockers, 54 turners, 8 bombers, 22 builders, 18 bashers, 2 miners, 1 digger, 3 climbers, 1 floater

Mayhem
1: 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 diggers, 2 climbers
2: 3 blockers, 2 turners, 1 bomber, 3 bashers, 4 climbers
3: 3 turners
4: 2 turners, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 climber, 1 floater
5: 3 bombers, 1 builder, 1 digger, 5 floaters
6: 7 turners
7: None
8: 1 turner, 4 builders
9: 1 turner, 1 builder, 1 digger, 2 climbers
10: 1 turner, 1 builder
11: 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 basher
12: 4 turners
13: 15 turners
14: 2 turners, 3 builders
15: 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 blocker, 5 turners, 3 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger, 6 climbers
17: 2 bashers
18: 7 builders
19: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 climbers
20: 1 turner
Total: 4 blockers, 46 turners, 7 bombers, 28 builders, 1 bashers, 1 miner, 6 diggers, 16 climbers, 6 floaters

Grand total: 13 blockers, 224 turners, 29 bombers, 90 builders, 33 bashers, 13 miners, 16 diggers, 32 climbers, 29 floaters

Err, so you're saying... "Regardless of the solution, you need at least X of skill Y to complete the stage"?

Indeed.

I have a strange feeling the vast majority of the final total will be builders...

Considering that the builder is the only skill capable of adding terrain pixels to the level, yeah, it would be a forgone conclusion that there'll be a lot of builders in the final total.

Anyway, Wild 9 is another level with "none", courtesy of the nuke glitch.

Fun 8 - 12: None
Fun 13: Diggers (see min skills thread for amount, I don't remember)
Fun 14: None
Fun 15: 6 Builders
Fun 16: Builders (see min skills thread for amount)
Fun 17: None
Fun 18: 5 Bombers
Fun 19: 4 Builders
Fun 20: 2 Builders
Fun 21-22: None
Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?
Fun 24-25: None
Fun 26: 2 builders
Fun 27: None
Fun 28: 5 builders
Fun 29: Maybe bashers?
Fun 30: None

Fun 13: Diggers (see min skills thread for amount, I don't remember)

That's 3 diggers.

Fun 16: Builders (see min skills thread for amount)

6. Although it might be possible to cut that using Tame 20 and the nuke glitch.

Fun 19: 4 Builders

Again, the Tame 20 glitch might come into play here and reduce that.

Fun 20: 2 Builders

I'm assuming DOS version here. This means no water, and you don't have to build to the exit platform.

Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?

I think it might be possible to eliminate each (in separate solutions) using multiple Tame 20's.

Fun 26: 2 builders

Possible with none. This was done in my old challenge thread.

Fun 29: Maybe bashers?

There's plenty enough skills to just mine and build across.

you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

if that's the case then my head just exploded and I quit Lemmings forever

Here're the essentials of first few levels of tricky

1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builders
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders

you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

Well, I assume there are no gaps to cross so don't be too surprised. And don't be silly like "quit lemmings forever" because you will come back eventually

No builders Fun 29 is one of the hardest challenges ever, but it's doable.

Quote from: Insane Steve on 2009-09-13 00:19:08you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

if that's the case then my head just exploded and I quit Lemmings forever

It's not too dissimilar to geoo's Tame 13 effort actually. The difference here is they give you a staircase to work with - albeit not a very nice one (since the lemmings won't climb it unless you make holes in it). Plus it takes a bit of steel-glitching.

But yes, it's possible - and with 100%. But I guess you're still gonna need a replay before you're convinced, so here it is. (Don't worry about the speed-digging bit at the start - you could just use a blocker and dig it out. I can't be bothered going back to change it...)

Here's what I know for the first few Tricky levels off the top of my head:

1:  1 builder
2:  Diggers (I'm not sure how many)
3:  1 builder
4:  5 builders
5:  3 builders
6:  2 builders
7:  7 builders
8:  10 builders
9:  None
10:  4 builders

Tricky 11
We know from the harder version that it can be done using only climbers, bombers and builders.  Thus meaning any solution that doesn't use any of those is fine.

Attached replay does use climbers, but doesn't use bombers or builders.

I think it's pretty commonly known this level can be done without climbers anyway, with a standard build-and-bash solution.

Therefore,

Tricky 11: None

Tricky 12
By direct drop, you can beat it with only one floater and then builders. Attached  is a replay that uses all 50 floaters (therefore, 1 floater is required - it's pretty obvious that you need at least one of them), as well as climbers, blockers, bashers and diggers - but no builders. Therefore, the minimum for this is:

Tricky 12: 1 floater

Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

Tricky 13: 5 builders

Tricky 14
Someone else can get this one.

Tricky 15
Very obvious - 3 bombers.

Tricky 16
1 Basher, and however many bombers are required when using the miner. You can do it without the miner, using more bombers, so the miner isn't needed.

Tricky 17
2 Bombers.

Tricky 18
1 Digger, 1 Bomber. You can  either make the second lemming float, or make him build to delay him, therefore, neither is essential.

Tricky 19
If I'm not mistake, 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. I suspect it's possible without any floaters, but I'll wait for someone else to confirm this.

Here's what I know for the first few Tricky levels off the top of my head:

I've already copied that! with an exception for Levels 8, 9, 10.

Quote from: namida on 2009-09-13 02:14:30
Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

Tricky 13: 5 builders

Thanks to our friend the nuke glitch, you can save 20/26 (76% - more than the 70% required) with 4 builders.

Quote from: namida on 2009-09-13 02:14:30
Tricky 16
1 Basher, and however many bombers are required when using the miner. You can do it without the miner, using more bombers, so the miner isn't needed.

I just got an idea that this might be possible without the basher. I'll try it now and let you know how it turns out.

EDIT: Success! Tricky 16 completed without the basher. Replay attached.

By the way, the minimum number of bombers is 4 - as reflected by the max % record of 92%.

Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

It was ccexplore and it was for the harder version. Which, incidentally, also gives you enough builders to complete the level with builders alone, so the result is the same for that level.

This topic is progressing too fast for me to be of much help, so I'll just fill in a few obvious ones among the later levels to save you the time

Mayhem 16 - 1 basher, 1 digger
Mayhem 20 - 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
Mayhem 21 - 1 climber, 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
Mayhem 24 - 3 bashers
Mayhem 27 - 2 bashers, 1 digger

Tricky  20 is a complex one.... with a rather nice result.

In the Single Skill Per Lemming topic, cc's solution didn't use climbers nor floaters.  Those two are off the list.
No bombers is obvious, you can use the standard solution and build over the blocker instead of bombing him.
No blockers, you can dig and build to turn your climber around. (Dealing with the left side on this should be fairly obvious)
No builders is... well, pretty much the standard solution.
No bashers, mine the first obstacle, and after turning around past the one way wall, climb back up, dig on the edge, and mine.
The standard solution  does not use miners or diggers.

So,

Tricky 20: None.



Also, about ditching the basher on Tricky 16 - I think I know what you're thinking of, and trust me, I've done that idea to death. It doesn't seem to be possible.

Tricky 19
If I'm not mistake, 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. I suspect it's possible without any floaters, but I'll wait for someone else to confirm this.

Tricky 19: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 digger (sorry!) Obviously it can't be done with these skills alone, but these are the only skills common to all the solutions.

Tricky 21
You can solve it with bashers and builders, or miners and builders. To hold back the crowd, you can use either diggers, miners or blockers. So the only thing essential is the builders. The fewest I can do is 3.

Tricky 21: 3 Builders

Tricky 22
It can be solved  bombers-only. It can also be solved builders-only.

Tricky 22: None

Tricky 23
As far as I'm aware, there's no solution that doesn't use all three destruction skills, the builder, and one climber...  >_>
(By the way, I just noticed that this and Tricky 19 have the same skill set!)
EDIT: Or maybe not. It can be done without the miner.  Thanks Proxima.

Tricky 23: 1 Climber, 1 Builder, 1 Basher, 1 Digger

Tricky 24
As far as I can tell, at least one blocker is needed for crowd control. You also need two builders to reach the exit.

Tricky 24: 1 Blocker, 2 Builders

Tricky 25
There's a no-floater solution out there.  When you get to the far right column, you have a choice of either bashing or mining through it. All solutions use at least two builders, however. So...

Tricky 25: 2 Builders

Tricky 26
If I remember correctly, there's an over-the-top solution which shouldn't need bashers (you'd only need to create holes in the bridge maybe, and a miner or digger can do that). You can do it without builders by bashing right next to the post, then making the next lemming mine then immediately bash when he's just about to turn around.

Tricky 26: None

Tricky 27
I'll let someone else get this one.

Tricky 28
It can be done with only builders, so all other skills are non-essential. It seems the minimum amount of builders you can do it with is 2, so...

Tricky 28: 2 Builders

Tricky 29
It can be beaten with only bashers. It can also be beaten without bashers. Replay attached. Therefore,

Tricky 29: None

Tricky 30
You can do it with blockers,  builders and miners. (Block off the crowd, mine and build across the two lower sections)
You can do it with climbers and miners. (This one is pretty obvious)
The only common skill between these two solutions is miners. Attached is a replay that doesn't use miners.

Tricky 30: None

Tricky 23
As far as I'm aware, there's no solution that doesn't use all three destruction skills, the builder, and one climber...  >_>
(By the way, I just noticed that this and Tricky 19 have the same skill set!)

Tricky 23: 1 Climber, 1 Builder, 1 Basher, 1 Miner, 1 Digger

No, the miner is not necessary.

Tricky 26
If I remember correctly, there's an over-the-top solution which shouldn't need bashers (you'd only need to create holes in the bridge maybe, and a miner or digger can do that). You can do it without builders by bashing right next to the post, then making the next lemming mine then immediately bash when he's just about to turn around.

Tricky 26: None

A faster solution without bashers:

Make a pass-through blocker, build one bridge-length before the pillar, mine when you reach it, make the miner build on the other side if necessary. Once all lemmings are facing right, there will still be lemmings falling from the trapdoor; make one dig then build to release the blocker.

And another neat solution without builders:

Make a pass-through blocker, bash the pillar, release the blocker as before except (obviously) you bash rather than build to stop the digger.

Also, about ditching the basher on Tricky 16 - I think I know what you're thinking of, and trust me, I've done that idea to death. It doesn't seem to be possible.

I did it

The replay is attached to my post on the previous page where I brought this up (edited in after you quoted it)
EDIT: wait, you didn't quote it at all. The replay is here.

Wow, this has exploded all of a sudden... I'll try to keep up.

Tricky 19: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher. Obviously it can't be done with these skills alone, but these are the only skills common to all the solutions.

It's quite easy to do without the basher. As for the miner and digger, I'm not sure. I'll have another look.
EDIT: OK, I found a no miner solution. That's a new one on me

Crap, you beat me to it. >_>

Oh  I put it that way round first (including the digger but not the basher) then confused myself and thought "That can't be right!" and changed it.

The solution without the miner is the way I first solved the level -- same for Tricky 23. I guess if you happen to discover the reverse-miner trick to begin with it's harder to make yourself think about alternatives

Oh... so you haven't found a no-digger solution. Ok then.

I've been trying Fun 23, though without the Tame 20 glitch. (I know what it is, just not how to pull it off.) Anyway, it can be done with just one builder, or with just one basher.

Quote from: namida on September 13, 2009, 08:53:07 AM
Tricky 24
As far as I can tell, at least one blocker is needed for crowd control. You also need two builders to reach the exit.

Tricky 24: 1 Blocker, 2 Builders

I'm fairly sure you can eliminate the blocker here. What you have to do is dig down next to two builder's bridges, one on each side (including the bridge to the exit). You can get 3 pixels of height from the builder and 4 from the digger, which is just enough to make the lemmings turn back. And here's the clever bit - when each digger has dug down exactly 4 pixels, make it mine and then use the miner trick with a bomber. And there you have it - a no-blockers holding pen. 8-) The only question is whether you can do this without losing too many lemmings - to find out I'll have to try it for real.  :sick:

EDIT: This turned out to be easier than expected - just tell the digger to mine right when it's about to explode :P

Replay attached.

Tricky 28
It can be done with only builders, so all other skills are non-essential. It seems the minimum amount of builders you can do it with is 2, so...

Tricky 28: 2 Builders

Possible with 1 builder (start under the platform and block it while it builds) due to the misplaced steel area - you can just bomb this away. Even if this was steeled, you could steel-glitch it out anyway.

Crazy 1: 1 blocker
Crazy 2: 1 climber, 3 builders, 1 digger
Crazy 3: 2 bombers
Crazy 4: 6 builders
Crazy 5: 7 builders
Crazy 6: 1 climber, 2 diggers, 5 builders
Crazy 7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
Crazy 11: 1 builder

EDIT: Tricky 27: 2 builders. All other skills can be avoided.

...couldn't you mine it? And then seperately avoid the climber by going underneath it?

Let's take a quick step back to Fun 15, which can be done with 4 builders (plus other skills).  (zip file includes Lemmix replay and a screenshot of the final result)

[edit: forgot to add screenshot to zip file, fixed now]

...couldn't you mine it? And then seperately avoid the climber by going underneath it?

Oh yes, I was thinking the miner would go too low, but you can release the crowd by digging into the mine tunnel. As for avoiding the climber, the terrain is higher on the other side but you can bash all the way out and get back up with builders and a blocker 

Quote from: namida on September 13, 2009, 08:53:07 AMTricky 23

EDIT: Or maybe not. It can be done without the miner.  Thanks Proxima.

Tricky 23: 1 Climber, 1 Builder, 1 Basher, 1 Digger

I finally got a solution that doesn't use the digger, so Tricky 23 is now 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher.

Replay attached.  No screenshots because it won't help.  Below's an English explanation:

Spoiler

The idea is to build from the pit, then bash at the top of the builder's bridge.  But before the bridge connects with the pit's wall, send a climber up, and have him mine shortly after bashing begins, starting about 3-5 pixels right of the edge of the basher's first stroke.  Done right and this will eventually stop the basher, and also allow the majority of the crowd to escape before the mining tunnel becomes too deep.

My first promising attempt uses the 2nd lemming that lands on the pit to build, and assign the climber some time between the builder laying the 10th and 11th build brick.  It saves 41, with 8 lemmings from the crowd didn't make it.  Then using Lemmix's text replay files, I find out which 8 they are, and I re-did my solution assigning climbers to those lemmings, so they can be saved as well.

Quote from: Clam on September 13, 2009, 04:58:56 AM

QuoteFun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?

I think it might be possible to eliminate each (in separate solutions) using multiple Tame 20's

Confirmed.  And actually you just need to use Tame 20 once in each solution.  And since the level can be solved with only bashers and builders, the final result for Fun 23 is "none".

Fun 16 can be done with 5 builders, replay attached.

Nice one, minimac. That was really good.

And ccexplore, I saw your screenshots first before your solution. I can't remember the last time i've been so confused. They are really good solutions there. Top stuff.

I've been searching for a way to get Fun 16 down to four builders, but so far I've had no luck.  A simple "Tame 20 glitch + nuke glitch" solution looks like it comes a few lemmings short, and with the exit right on top of that pillar, there's very little space to create a path upwards for the crowd.  But I wouldn't rule out some sort of "Tame 13-like" solution...

Quote from: ccexplore on September 13, 2009, 10:23:11 AMLet's take a quick step back to Fun 15, which can be done with 4 builders (plus other skills).  (zip file includes Lemmix replay and a screenshot of the final result)

[edit: forgot to add screenshot to zip file, fixed now]

With a bit of lateral (or is that vertical?) thinking, this level can be done with just 2 builders. And with 100% saved 8-)

Quote from: Minim on September 13, 2009, 03:55:06 PM
Fun 16 can be done with 5 builders, replay attached.

Expertly done. I must say, I'm impressed :thumbsup:

Quote from: Proxima on September 13, 2009, 10:19:00 AM
EDIT: Tricky 27: 2 builders. All other skills can be avoided.

In the challenge thread (on this forum, I think) I did this with one builder.

Update on Fun 16:

Four builders is now verified!!!   

I ended up getting the Tame 20 glitch + nuke glitch combination to work by optimizing the method.

It takes four builders to reach the platform under the exit, where the Tame 20 glitch is executed.  The trouble is you only have 20 climbers, which means you can only save 20 lemmings using the Tame 20 glitch.  This means you have to nuke before the 33rd lemming comes out of the entrance in order to get the required percentage.  But of course, you can't nuke until your 20 climbers are within five seconds of the exit.  With the given layout of the level, by the time you get 20 lemmings trapped in the pillar and release the blocker, there are already 29 or 30 lemmings out, and the climbers won't reach the exit in time.

The key is to bash through the four spikes so that the lemmings don't waste precious time climbing up and down each one of them.  This allows the blocker to be freed a tad earlier.  If you assign your 20 climbers in rapid succession and then nuke right before the 33rd lemming comes out, the last climber will reach the exit just before he explodes.

Tricky 13 only needs 3 builders.  Seems like a bunch of people overlooked something.

Use various steel destruction glitches to dramatically lower the right edge of the steel block you land on from the trapdoor.
 

Tricky
8: 10 builders

Another overlooked one.  It's 9 builders.  You definitely don't need a replay for this.

Fun 19 doesn't need 4 builders, it can be done with 2:

Quote from: ccexplore on September 14, 2009, 03:02:37 AM

Quote from: LemSteven on September 13, 2009, 07:48:40 AM
Tricky
8: 10 builders

Another overlooked one.  It's 9 builders.  You definitely don't need a replay for this. ;)

Ah - you've missed something too. It might take a replay to convince you that it's possible with just 8 builders :P


I'll suggest a starting point of 8 builders for Tricky 14, just so we can get a total there (which I will add in shortly).

Ah - you've missed something too. It might take a replay to convince you that it's possible with just 8 builders

Very nice. I actually started with a solution where I used a blocker to allow everyone to pass through the thin wall on the left at the bottom, but I had to use an extra builder to build over the blocker so it was 9 not 8, and 9 of course can be done quite normally.  I thought about the location you used in your solution for blocking but again, I forgot that I could just compress the crowd instead of building over the blocker.

Holy what the

yea I bow out of all challenges like this in the future; these glitches are getting too advanced for me to follow 

That doesnt' mean you can't try the non-glitch ones. For example, Tricky 30 didn't need glitches to show it doesn't require any specific skill - while still being challenging (from a strategic point of view, not an execution one) at the same time to acheive without miners.

I've been trying Mayhem 3. The standard solution doesn't use the bomber and blocker, and that you can avoid the climber and floater is well-known. You could avoid the basher if you had more time but the most I can save is 86%.

86%? I can easily manage 96% with no basher. (With the last lemming being lost to time, not dying.) Or was that a typo?

100%, is an entirely different issue.

Also - define "standard". It was a LONG time until I found a no-blocker solution. (Attached is a replay of how I used to beat the level.)

Remember, I can't view replays....

I can't define "standard" in general, but the standard solution to Mayhem 3 is the one shown here. It's clear that you weren't meant to use a blocker because the fact that blockers can be released is meant to be still a surprise on Mayhem 20 (as indeed it was for me).

Mayhem 3 completed with no bashers. :)

Will post details and pics in a sec...

Okay, here's how it's done:

1) First lemming mines as shown in picture #1. Position must be pixel precise, so that a positioning glitch causes him to fall all the way down but the others to land on the middle platform as shown in picture #2.
2) Make the first lemming a floater.
3) Second lemming (first lemming on middle platform) digs about half way up the slope, third lemming blocks right behind him, as shown in picture #3 (if the third lemming doesn't block, he'll go over the top and drown. He'll be freed after the digger takes a few digs, but the delay is enough to stop him from being able to go up).
4) The floater builds over the trap, as shown (as if it was nessecary to show that, though...) in picture #4.
5) 100% saved, and with 9 seconds to spare, without using the basher, as shown in picture #5.

My question now is: Can you, by placing them with perfect timing, make a basher free a blocker but still turn around on him (by placing the blocker in the mid-bash higher area, the part that you put new bashers in for the trick used to beat Fun 12/14 with bashers only)? If so, then it's possible without the digger (but using the basher instead), thus making the miner and the builder the only compulsory skills for this level (and that's assuming we don't find solutions without them). No way I'm going to try this myself, at least not until I get confirmation that it's at least possible in general.

Quote from: Clam on September 14, 2009, 03:59:23 AM
I'll suggest a starting point of 8 builders for Tricky 14, just so we can get a total there (which I will add in shortly).

You can put in a real result for that level now.  Here is Tricky 14 with 4 builders.  This better be optimal given how much work it took. :XD: ;)

The zip file includes a single screenshot although it probably isn't enough to convey the full solution; PM me if you can't use Lemmix replays and I'll do my best to explain it.  If anyone wants to attempt it themselves, here's an important hint:

Spoiler

There's a point in the solution where you need to use the Tame 20 trick against a wall that's only 4 pixels wide, just barely wide enough to support the climbing without the lemming falling off the wall.  But for that to work, the lemming needs to be pushed into the wall an exact distance, which means you need to time the freeing of the blocker precisely.

My question now is: Can you, by placing them with perfect timing, make a basher free a blocker but still turn around on him (by placing the blocker in the mid-bash higher area, the part that you put new bashers in for the trick used to beat Fun 12/14 with bashers only)?

The answer is "no" as far as I know.  The basher doesn't feel the effects of blockers (or any other trigger areas) until he starts moving, and he doesn't start moving until well after he completes the terrain removal associated with the bash stroke.  So the blocker will be freed long before the basher starts moving.

Okay. Well even so, eliminating the basher is pretty good.

I'm still trying to decide which is my best acheivement in this topic... Tricky 12, Tricky 30, or this one...

Here's a first crack at Mayhem 2, with 6 builders.  Anyone who wants to do better will have to work out a way starting from the bottom of the pillar.

I think I can get Taxing 16 out of the way now.  I've previously shown that it can be done without blockers and bombers (http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=challenge_replays/taxing16_saveall.zip) (100% solution), and (separate solution) without floaters.  The attached solution attempts to minimize builders (down to 7).  So the current result for the level is "7 builders".

Taxing 21's another level that ends up with "none":

- the standard solution (http://tle.vaarties.nl/quicksolution/lemmings/amiga/taxing/21/) doesn't use floaters, blockers, bombers, or bashers (don't start building at the place shown in the picture, but more about 7 pixels away from the edge, and the builder will naturally stop at the right place).

- attached's a solution that doesn't use climbers or miners.

- I also mentioned on the old old forums of a solution that doesn't use builders.  I don't have a replay ready at the moment, but you should be able to extrapolate the solution based on the no-climber-no-miner solution.

- and of course, you can eliminate the digger in the standard solution by mining towards the steel instead to turn around.

yea I bow out of all challenges like this in the future; these glitches are getting too advanced for me to follow 

Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes you can achieve the same results without using glitches.  For example, here're the Fun 23 results (no builders, and separately no bashers) without the Tame 20 trick (nor any climbers nor exploders, for that matter).  Both are glitch-free under a reasonable definition of "glitches", or at least pretty close to it.  Further reductions in certain types of skills are probably possible; for example, the one without bashers can be modified to use only miners and builders while still saving 100%.

(Screenshot include in zip file for those who can't use Lemmix replays.)

Taxing 9: "none"

- a well-known solution only uses a digger, a floater, and a miner.  So climbers, bombers, blockers, builders and bashers are optional.

- in the same solution above, instead of using the miner, you can use a blocker, then free him with the 2nd digger, a basher, and a builders (or 2 climbers).

- to avoid the floater, have both the 1st and 2nd lemming dig separate but close-together tunnels.  Stop the digging with builders.  Have the lemming from the right tunnel mine left to free everyone.

- finally, to avoid the digger, see attached solution.

Mayhem 12:

- the "near side" solution using ClamSpammer's glitches uses 1 builder, 3 diggers, and 1 basher.  Unfortunately that builder is needed here to setup the necessary glitch.

- It's possible to solve the level without diggers, using miners where applicable.  The ceiling route for example lends readily to this, although it's possible to do it without the ceiling route for a glitch-free solution (attached).

- It's also possible solve the level without bashers.  You will need to use the glitch of getting a climber stuck.  See attached solution.

(Screenshots included in zip file).

Final result: 1 builder

Taxing 1, 6 builders is obvious. Is a basher also nessecary or can it be done without bashers?

Taxing 2, I've attached two replays that between them, eliminate every skill except for one builder.

Taxing 3 is however many builders is needed to get a path to the exit (unless you can do it in fewer with sliding, maybe?). You can create a holding area without builders by using the dig-on-same-spot trick, and using a climber who then digs and bashes to release the crowd. The level is possible with builders only, so no non-builder skill is essential.

Taxing 4, a normal solution can be done with either miners, or diggers and bashers, to get the two sides together, and apart from that, only builders are needed. So, what's the fewest amount of builders it can be done with? It seems to be... 3, by using almost every other skill, and TONS of glitch abuse (starts with blockers pushing lemmings into walls, then there's steel glitches, lemmings walking through blockers by coming up under a blocker on an edge, and concludes with a good old slide straight up to the exit).

Taxing 5, I'll leave this to someone else.

Alright, I'll try Taxing 5 then.

Solved without blockers, bombers, 7 builders so far... I think it works without diggers as well although I didn't do it manually. Can it be solved with just one basher even though there are two walls?

Improved to 6 builders, replay is here just in case...

No chance. You need a seperate basher for the walls in the middle and the walls by the exit. By going the high route, though, you can get through the entire middle column with just one basher, if that's what you mean.

However, you can probably eliminate the bashers altogether by using diggers and/or bombers to get through the walls.

No chance.

Ha-ha I did get it in one basher. Although I forgot the replay here's what I've done.

Blockers and bombers (2 of each) for the first wall and for the other I dug the left side of the column, bashed the exit floor, turned round and built a rescue bridge (I've somehow created a gap between the stair and the exit platform. At the start I've decided to create a safety bridge on the right to stop the lemmings falling)

Sorry, but I can one-up you on that.

Attached: Taxing 5 with no bashers.

Note that the huge builder stacking right at the end isn't actually nessecary, I just couldn't be bothered timing the bomber.

So, if no one can improve on your 6 builders run, then I'd say the essential skills for this level stands at that: 6 builders.

However, I think 5 may be possible... but it'd require excellent timing, so I'm leaving that one to the experts. :P 4 is out of the question.

Taxing 1, 6 builders is obvious. Is a basher also nessecary or can it be done without bashers?

I really doubt it.  No basher means no ceiling or underground route to bypass the 3 pillars.  A pillar's width is 34, which can be breached with 2 diggers (9 pixels each) and 1 bomber (16 pixels), and you might even be able to get your bomber into the correct position for that using both blockers (who would be freed by one of the digger and the bomber, if you know what I have in mind).  But, you'll then need to use up the remaining 2 builders as well to stop the diggers, and then I don't see how you would get through the remaining 2 pillars with 2 miners and nothing else.  It also takes 3 builders to connect two adjacent pillars so that they can be mined with one miner, but you only have 2 to spare.

Taxing 18:  1 builder

The level is possible using just a builder, a bomber, and a basher by bashing through the top of the steel below the OWW.

It is fairly well known that 100% is possible without the basher, so that means the basher and the bombers are not necessary.

Quote from: namida on September 15, 2009, 08:02:29 PM
[On Taxing 5] 4 is out of the question.

Not if you use the right glitch.  See attached (screenshot included).

The real question now is whether 3 builders is possible.  The main issue is the relative lack of bombers and blockers I think, but you might just barely have enough, I'm not sure.  I'll leave that for another time/someone else to try.

Quote from: namida on September 15, 2009, 07:29:54 PM
Taxing 4, a normal solution can be done with either miners, or diggers and bashers, to get the two sides together, and apart from that, only builders are needed. So, what's the fewest amount of builders it can be done with? It seems to be... 3, by using almost every other skill, and TONS of glitch abuse (starts with blockers pushing lemmings into walls, then there's steel glitches, lemmings walking through blockers by coming up under a blocker on an edge, and concludes with a good old slide straight up to the exit).

Improved to 1 builder. This sees the return of a trick I used a couple of times in the "one of each" thread - and it could come up again in this thread, since obviously if you can do the sliding trick with one builder instead of two, that's going to be of interest.

Taxing 6 appears to come down to 1 basher.

No blockers or bombers are used in the 100% solution, and the digger is not used in the standard "bunch 'em up and send 'em through the traps" solution.

But no matter what you do, you're going to need at least one basher to get everyone together.

Also, I might as well mention this obvious one:

Taxing 19 -- 5 bombers.

Crazy 1: 1 blocker
Crazy 2: 1 climber, 3 builders, 1 digger
Crazy 3: 2 bombers
Crazy 4: 6 builders
Crazy 5: 7 builders
Crazy 6: 1 climber, 2 diggers, 5 builders
Crazy 7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
Crazy 11: 1 builder

Wow, I completely missed this post somehow. I can improve two of these:

Crazy 2 can be done quite easily without the climber.
Crazy 4: If you build at exactly the right spot, the builder will connect with the top platform and shrug, and then you can get it to climb up. The solution then takes 4 builders in total.

More Crazy:


8: A 4-builders solution was found a long time ago. It looks like you need a basher to get past the crystals, if nothing else. The rest can be done away with easily.
- 4 builders, 1 basher

9: Fairly straightforward to eliminate builders, and then each digging skill in turn. The rest are obviously unnecessary.
- none

10: Basher is obviously required. My least-skills solution cuts out the climber, floater and one builder, and a modification of the ceiling backroute (attached) gets away without using the blocker. My RR99 solution (attached here since I never posted it before) doesn't use the bomber. (This exploits the poor positioning of the trigger areas, and of course doesn't have to be done with RR99.)
- 7 builders, 1 basher

12: 2 builders needed for obvious reasons. It takes 3 bombers to get down safely to the ground, and another 2 to get through the pillars - but you can only lose 5 lemmings, and there aren't enough skills left to control the rest of the lemmings without using at least one basher.
- 2 builders, 1 basher

13: The least skills solution uses the digger, miner and 2 builders. The standard solution (at least as I see it) uses no builders.
- 1 miner, 1 digger

14: Fairly exclusive solution, only the climber and floaters can be cut out.
- 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger

15: Simple backroute by digging next to the steel takes 3 builders, and doesn't require the climber and bomber. Direct drop route uses no diggers.
- 3 builders

16: One builder is obviously needed. Everything else can be done away with - even the bashers.
- 1 builder

Crazy 17 is confusing me. The minimum skills thread says 8, which surely must mean the ceiling route? (I know the ceiling route is possible on Mac, but the time factor made me think it might not convert to DOS.) But if so, why isn't it 7?

The ceiling route is not possible in DOS, not even close.

Crazy 17 is confusing me. The minimum skills thread says 8, which surely must mean the ceiling route? (I know the ceiling route is possible on Mac, but the time factor made me think it might not convert to DOS.) But if so, why isn't it 7?

And now you're confusing us by posting this here instead of on the minimum skills thread.

Anyway, you can do 8 without the ceiling route because:

If you dig right next to the right wall at the start (ie. at the pixel immediately before the lemming starts to turn left), you can dig through multiple levels, and then start bashing right through the wall without the basher falling.

So you need 2 skills to get through the first wall, 1 to get past the barrel, 2 to build to the brickwork above water, 1 to bash through it and 1 to dig (otherwise the fall is fatal), and finally 1 to release the crowd.
 

The ceiling route does work in DOS, but it requires 9 skills.  Due to time constraints, the crowd must be restrained until most of the work is done, which requires 2 extra skills in addition to the 7 that Proxima was alluding to.

Even then, the solution comes down to the last few seconds.

But back on topic, here's the breakdown for Crazy 17:

• The blocker and bomber are obviously not needed.
• Since only one builder is needed to clear the red barrel thingy, the standard solution can be done with just three builders.
• The 8-skill solution uses only two of the three diggers.

Therefore the final list comes down to 3 builders, 2 bashers, and 2 diggers.

• The 8-skill solution uses only two of the three diggers.

Therefore the final list comes down to 3 builders, 2 bashers, and 2 diggers.

Unless there's a time problem in the 8-skill solution, since you can lose 1 and still pass the level, can't you trade the 2nd digger for a bomber?  (ie. so the final result is just 1 digger not 2?)

You certainly can.

Taxing 10 works with 6 builders.

Taxing 7:
Climber-free replay attached.
Bombers, the intended solution uses only one. I can't seem to reduce it below this.
Blocker-free replay attached.
Builders, the level gives you six. Replay using five attached.
Bashers, I can't find any way to beat the level without using one.

So for Taxing 7, it's 1 bomber, 5 builders, 1 basher.

Taxing 8:
Climbers and floaters are obviously not going to help you at all on this level.
Bombers are useless, since it's 100%.
The fewest builders this level can be completed with is 3, replay attached.
The fewest bashers this level can be completed with is 4, replay attached.

Note that 3 builders + 4 bashers is an impossible skillset for this level, of course. 3 builders solution uses far more than 4 bashers, and 4 bashers solution uses far more than 3 builders.

Crazy 18: It takes two builders (and some perfect bridge-stretching) to get from the upper platform to the top ball, from which the lemmings can walk to the exit. As far as I'm aware, there's no viable 1- or no- builder solution using the Tame 20 trick, since the time limit and skill set are too restrictive. Every other skill, however, can be eliminated by varying the 2-builder solution in different ways.
Result: 2 builders.

Crazy 19: One builder is needed to get across the water, and other routes don't offer any improvement on this. The other skills can be picked off one by one without much difficulty. It's helpful to know that you can build over the one-way wall with three builders.
Result: 1 builder.

Crazy 20: 50% requirement means you can ignore the left side altogether, which helps a lot. Blockers and bombers are easy to eliminate. 6 builders seems to be a minimum - unfortunately it takes two to cross the first gap because of the spike, and there's no way to get rid of in such a way that keeps the builder moving without losing a lemming, and thus needing to save some from the left. Bashers can be left altogether by using bombers instead, and then saving the left side using the spare builders.
Result: 6 builders.

Taxing 8 is evil. I had an idea to reduce it to 3 bashers. The level is perfectly set up to not allow this. (On the other hand, with cheapo mechanics, it would be doable, due to a slight difference in how bashers react to builder steps placed in front of them)

But at least it's given me an idea for a new level.

Well, it seems we both had the same idea.

I got it to work though. ;) Replay attached.

Yours is slightly different to what I was trying, although the trick's the same. Nice work, anyway.

Taxing 7 is really nothing other than the standard solution (except for just 1 bomber). Taxing 8 works with 4 builders and 5 bashers.

I'm going to go ahead and start looking at Wicked.

Wicked 1: 

• The 98% solution requires just a bomber, a basher, a miner, and a digger.
• The basher can be eliminated by using bombers to clear the one-way wall.
• The miner and digger can also be eliminated by using bombers instead.

So the result comes to 1 Bomber.

Wicked 2:  

• I've just completed a run of the level without bashers, so they can be eliminated.
• You need at least seven total miners and diggers (one at the start, five in the middle, and one at the end).  Since a total of eight are provided, you can either save one miner or one digger.
• The climber is clearly not necessary.

The result here is 5 builders, 1 miner, and 5 diggers.

Wicked 3: 

• Using the right side, the level can be completed with as few as 3 builders.
• The right side solution also doesn't require any climbers or bashers.
• I managed to complete the level without any diggers using a left route.

Therefore, the list comes down to just 3 builders.

My turn at wicked 4:
So far: 2 bombers, 6 builders and 1 basher, although I'm sure it can be without the basher at all since you can blast open the one-way block.

You definitely don't need the basher because the low save requirement allows you to ignore the top right entrance completely.  Also, using the same logic, you can ignore the top left entrance and remove the need for the bombers.

So we're now down to just the 6 builders.

And now the (presumably final) result for Wicked 4: 3 builders. The trick here is to use some of the "spare" lemmings to destroy the parts of the white steps that would get in the builder's way.

You definitely don't need the basher because the low save requirement allows you to ignore the top right entrance completely.  Also, using the same logic, you can ignore the top left entrance and remove the need for the bombers.

So we're now down to just the 6 builders.

Well done, I missed the point. I ignore the lower left entrance so often you know.

Anyway, Wicked 5 needs a climber and a builder, a basher and a digger. Great level for the one-per-skill challenge.

Wicked 6 definitely comes down to nothing.  No bombers are needed to pass the level, and yet a bombers-only solution exists as well.

I'm also pretty sure Wicked 7 comes down to 1 blocker and 4 bombers.

Wicked 5 can be solved without the climber. Which makes this a good level for speedruns too

Wild 1 (similar to Wicked 6) ends up with no essential skills either. You can solve it with any two of:

• bombers
• builders
• basher and miners

while leaving the other group of skills.

Havoc 12 works with 9 builders. ccexplore posted a solution in this post.

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=98.msg1613#msg1613

Taxing 15 is another "None".  It can be done with builders only, yet it can also be done with no builders.

I started Wild, so I may as well continue.

2: 5 builders
3: 6 builders (a builders-only solution is possible here)
4: 6 builders, 1 basher. The 6-builder solution was a nightmare to execute, so the replay is here to save you the trouble
5: 2 bombers, 3 builders. I'll leave the 3 builder solution as a challenge. Sliding is not the way to go
6: 1 builder

Wicked 8 looks like it requires 4 bombers, 2 climbers, and a builder.  Unfortunately, the towers appear to be just a tad too wide to force the crowd through with a blocker.

I honestly don't get how the Wild 3 builders-only solution is possible. Can you make a replay of that? Thanks.

I haven't actually tried it, but I know the basic principle of how it's done.  The vast majority of the route is through the chains at the top of the level.

The main problem I run into when implementing this solution is that halfway through the chains the lemmings get caught at the top of the screen and you have to use a digger to free them...

Wild 7: 3 builders, 2 bashers
Wild 8: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder
Wild 10: 3 builders, 1 basher


The builders-only route for Wild 3 takes a bit of fine placement. You can get up into the first chain with a single builder if it's placed in the right spot. (Actually, there might be more than one position that works.) The other tricky bit is the one Yawg is struggling with - avoiding getting stuck in the ceiling.

I wonder, with things such as new glitches being found (not often) or new backroutes) will these results ever be certain to be final?

What? The no digger Wild 10 makes even less sense to me than the builder only wild 3. At least the latter I can kind of see how to conceptualise.

I give up at Lemmings challenges, I'm going to stick to my bare-bones knowledge of the Lemmings engine and use my weird mind-set to make challenging levels and play from now on.

 

I wonder, with things such as new glitches being found (not often) or new backroutes) will these results ever be certain to be final?

Of course not. Same with any other challenge. If you ever do manage to improve on any of the challenge results, you can go and dig up the relevant thread.

Havoc 12 works with 9 builders. ccexplore posted a solution in this post.

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=98.msg1613#msg1613

I think there's an error in your first post, Clam spammer. You put it in as Havoc 15 rather than 12, unless you know that 15 works with just 9 builders.

Oops :D Thanks for picking that up.


Next couple from Wild (these were pretty tough):

11: 2 builders
12: 3 2 builders, 1 basher. The 2-builder solution is a tough one to figure out (but easy to execute, thankfully). I've attached the replay for those who don't like this sort of thing ;)

A couple of tips that may be useful on Wild 11:

Spoiler

- Miners go quite a long way into steel before turning back
- Bashers can dig out the end of a steel area

Wicked 9 works so far with 1 blocker but I'm sobbing by the fact it can't be done without the floater. I also did it with 9 builders.

And for Hail 3 (I like this level because the skills are so generous) I did 11 builders with 14 bashers (Sorry about the 14 bashers, I'm sure I can do better than that, that was on my first attempt )

By the way -- something I've been curious about for some time, and I'll ask it here rather than the minimum skills topic just because this one is near the top at the moment.

I know that some versions of Lemmings allow you to solve "We all fall down" with just two builders, and I know what the trick is to that solution. So I can understand why it would require three on DOS. But how on earth do you come by 3 on the Fun version, 5 on Tricky, 7 on Taxing and 9 on Mayhem? I can't understand how a trick solution can be possible and yet not the same number for all four.....

This just comes down to optimising the standard digger-saving technique of increasing the release rate to let some lemmings fall safely without using a digger themselves. The lemmings will fall safely if half the thickness of the platform (3 pixels) has been dug before they fall off, as you're probably aware. Of course, to fully optimise it, you can't use a constant release rate

The end result is one digger per 9 lemmings, rounded up. Hence the pattern of 3, 5, 7 and 9.

I'm getting annoyed with Havoc 13. I tried to take the higher route to avoid the basher but when I'm at the top I get stuck in the middle of the second bridge and can't get out. So that means I did have to use a basher, and a miner to beat the level, along with 5 builders. Blockers and bombers are not worried about.

Quote from: Minim on September 22, 2009, 04:03:19 PM
Wicked 9 works so far with 1 blocker but I'm sobbing by the fact it can't be done without the floater. I also did it with 9 builders.

Try to hold back your tears as you watch the replay I posted here. :P While I did use the floater in this solution (in the interest of speed), it's pretty clear how to adapt the solution to avoid it.

Quote from: Minim on September 23, 2009, 06:30:34 AM
I'm getting annoyed with Havoc 13. I tried to take the higher route to avoid the basher but when I'm at the top I get stuck :XD: in the middle of the second bridge and can't get out.

How do you mean "stuck"?

EDIT: I got a no-basher and (separate) no-miner solution, replay with no bashers attached. (Changing this to avoid the miner instead is trivial)

That is absolute genius, well done Clam Spammer.

Oh wow, thanks


Here's the rest of Wild. Most of these were achieved by just going through the skills one by one.
13: 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
14: 1 builder
15: 1 builder, 1 basher
16: 1 climber, 4 builders
17: 2 builders, 1 basher
18: 2 bombers, 3 builders
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders

Havoc 14 is just the standard solution without a climber. So the results: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers.

For Havoc 15: 7 builders, 1 blocker, 1 basher and 1 digger.

Forgot to mention earlier - I did Havoc 13 with 3 builders as well.

Havoc 16 essentials so far are 5 builders and 1 blocker. Does this level work with the sliding glitch?

o_O
Fun 15 with two builders? Replay please...

EDIT: Nevermind, found it on the old pages.

You can definitely remove the blocker in Havoc 16.  A miner+builder on the bottom floor has the same effect.  The remaining skills are sufficient to get everyone up to the exit.

And for Hail 3 (I like this level because the skills are so generous) I did 11 builders with 14 bashers (Sorry about the 14 bashers, I'm sure I can do better than that, that was on my first attempt )

Improved to 5 bashers now. I'll need to see ccexplore's 23-skill solution to help me.

Oh, that didn't help . He used 13 builders with 7 bashers.

Quote from: Minim on September 24, 2009, 06:51:26 AM
For Havoc 15: 7 builders, 1 blocker, 1 basher and 1 digger.

Heh. I didn't need the digger at all. The replay explains why.

Here's a couple more from Wicked:

Wicked 16:  1 bomber, 1 builder
Wicked 17:  5 builders

It's not often that I get one you missed, but Wild 17 don't need no bashers.

Ack, of course

Well spotted.

Havoc 16 essentials so far are 5 builders and 1 blocker. Does this level work with the sliding glitch?

Of course it does. The question is whether you can use it to save any skills - and in the absence of bashers, I'm not sure if you can.

What? The no digger Wild 10 makes even less sense to me than the builder only wild 3. At least the latter I can kind of see how to conceptualise.

I give up at Lemmings challenges, I'm going to stick to my bare-bones knowledge of the Lemmings engine and use my weird mind-set to make challenging levels and play from now on.

 

Don't feel too bad about this one.  I've seen the Wild 10 challenge a few months back, and I still haven't gotten it myself. I've tried a few things on and off but I always seem to run out of builders and bashers, so at this point I'm not even sure if I've gotten the correct approach yet.  I'm not ready to give up on it yet, but I think it's time for Clam to post the replay for that one at least for the benefit of other people.

Hmm... now I think about it, the required placement for this challenge is quite harsh - 2 builders have to be placed exactly right, with no sort of guide from the terrain as to where to put them.

Here is the replay, for anyone who wants to see it.

Replays for each of these levels are in the minimum skills thread. Here are the last four levels of Havoc:

17: 1 blocker, 4 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
18: 1 climber, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 1 basher, 2 diggers
19: 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger
20: 1 climber, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 2 miners.

Quote from: ccexplore on September 15, 2009, 10:09:26 PM

Quote from: namida on September 15, 2009, 08:02:29 PM
[On Taxing 5] 4 is out of the question.

Not if you use the right glitch.  See attached (screenshot included).

The real question now is whether 3 builders is possible.  The main issue is the relative lack of bombers and blockers I think, but you might just barely have enough, I'm not sure.  I'll leave that for another time/someone else to try.

Looks like it's "another time" then. ;) Here's a 3-builder solution for Taxing 5.

That is... in a word... INCREDIBLE!

Anyway, last three levels of Wicked are...

18: 9 builders
19: 2 bashers, 6 builders
20: 1 blocker, 4 builders (Sorry about that one, I'm 100% sure this is improvable since it works with just 4 skills, but I'm not sure which 4 they are).

And some Havoc here too.

9: 14 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners
10: 1 builder
11: 11 builders

19: 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger

I've done some work on this level and here's what I have come up with:

-- The minimum number of builders is 2 (one at the very start and another to get up to the wall on the left).  The crowd can be trapped using just 2 bashers, a miner, and a digger, and released using a digger and a miner.  (One lemming does leak out to the right at the beginning, but he is saved in the end by making him a climber.)

-- One basher is needed to get through the large wall to the right of the exit.

-- You have enough builders such that no bashers, miners, or diggers are strictly necessary for crowd control.

-- The exit can be reached in the end with any of a basher, miner, or digger, so once again none are strictly necessary.

Therefore my result for Havoc 19 is 2 builders & 1 basher

Quote from: ccexplore on 2009-09-15 16:09:26

Quote from: namida on 2009-09-15 14:02:29

[on Taxing 5] 4 is out of the question.

Not if you use the right glitch.  See attached (screenshot included).

The real question now is whether 3 builders is possible.  The main issue is the relative lack of bombers and blockers I think, but you might just barely have enough, I'm not sure.  I'll leave that for another time/someone else to try.

Looks like it's "another time" then. Here's a 3-builder solution for Taxing 5.

... so I never thought geoo's Tame 13 1 builder solution could be eclipsed as a "skill reduction run" challenge for a level.

This may actually manage to do that. 

To end your Havoc levels here are the first 8 (I went backwards didn't I )

1: 5 builders
2: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 1 blocker, 12 builders, 2 diggers (Improvable)
3: 1 builder, 1 basher
4: 1 climber, 1 floater, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
5: 2 climbers, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 miners
6: 1 miner
7: 6 climbers, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 1 digger
8: 1 climber, 5 builders, 4 miners, 1 digger.

And now I'll start checking through Havoc myself - the right way

1, 3 and 6 aren't improvable. This should be fairly obvious.

2: I can't find any way to solve this with no diggers. My result here is a digger and 9 builders.
4: A 3-skill solution exists - one builder, basher and digger. All three are essential to any solution as far as I can tell.
5: Possible with no builders, which I long thought was impossible but just achieved today. (Personally, I wouldn't recommend trying this one - once you've got the general strategy, the rest is a total crapshoot, and seriously unfun. never mind that part... )

I saw a 1 digger solution to Havoc 18 on Youtube; I'm not sure if the mechanics are different or anything but the idea is to use a bomber instead of a digger to release the group and the only digger is to dig the tall thin pillar in the middle.

confirm/deny?

Confirm, definitely. 

With one more builder, I could do it with no diggers...



Continuing from above:
Havoc 7 - 5 builders.

5: Possible with no builders, which I long thought was impossible but just achieved today. (Personally, I wouldn't recommend trying this one - once you've got the general strategy, the rest is a total crapshoot, and seriously unfun.)

I had actually reported that almost 4 years ago back on the old old forums (search for "pass Havoc 5 without builders").  Yes, it was just the standard solution with a "slight modification" of the first few moves, though I won't go quite as far as calling the re-solving the rest of Havoc 5 "seriously unfun".

I was doing it wrong, that's why

For some reason I thought you needed to assign both climbers at the top (and thus have no idea how they'll be spaced when they come out at the bottom). I'm sure you can imagine how "unfun" this could get...

Quote from: Minim
You forgot to update the first 8 Havoc levels I've posted. Anyway, I'll do Frost.

After an hour's work, here are the essentials of Frost:

3 and 11: 1 builder
6: 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 4 builders
7: 7 builders
9: 2 builders, 1 miner
10: 1 floater, 1 builder, 1 basher, 3 miners, 3 diggers
12: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
13: 2 builders.
14: 3 builders, 3 bashers
15: 1 builder, 3 bashers
16: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders.
The rest: no essentials

Replays for 5 and 11, both done without bashers.

I didn't forget - I'm still working through them.

Havoc 8 is possible with one less builder. That leaves 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 miners and 1 digger.

Quote from: Clam on September 30, 2009, 08:26:02 PM
Havoc 8 is possible with one less builder. That leaves 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 miners and 1 digger.

Possible with either 3 miners or without the digger.  See attached.  [screenshot included for the no-digger variant, the 3-miner variant is virtually identical except for switching the miner for a digger]

I even have a spare builder left over, though I don't think that can help with any further reduction of skills.  It may allow for 100% though I think, by allowing you to start building slightly more away from the edge for the top-left gap (spanning it with 2 builders instead of 1), so that the climber cannot re-climb the left wall (the fact that it can is sorta a glitch anyway).

Anyway, this puts Havoc 8 at 1 climber, 4 builders, 3 miners.

9: 14 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners

The minimum-skills thread showed that you only need 13 climbers on that level.  Perhaps you didn't stretch your builders enough.

I'm nearly done checking through Havoc. Other improvements I have made are:

15: Eliminated all but the builders (5 of these)
16: Down to 3 builders
17: Down to 3 builders ()

Some of these will likely require replays to explain, so when I'm done with these I might upload a zip with all of them in.

[Havoc 8] Possible with either 3 miners or without the digger.

Oh crap, that was obvious. Too obvious.

I'm still working on Wicked over here:

Wicked 12:  It is possible to get by with just 6 builders because you can drop straight off the chain into the exit.  You can also use this extra builder to remove the need for any bombers, so the result is 2 blockers, 6 builders, and 1 miner.

Wicked 13:  We know the level can be done with builders only, so the question is what is the fewest number of builders possible?  Right now I've got it down to 8 builders, but I certainly wouldn't rule out seven.

Wicked 14:  I went through two runs of this level.  One uses just builders, bashers, and bombers, and the other uses just climbers, miners, and blockers.  Neither one is extremely difficult, and between the two of them, they eliminate everything, so the end result is none.

I've managed to get Havoc 18 down to builders (8 of them - same as in ccexplore's least-skills replay) and one digger.

Since I've held out on replays lately, and probably shouldn't have, I have gathered together the best ones and uploaded them here. Included are (all from Havoc):

2 - no climbers
7 - no blockers or bombers
8 - 4 builders
16 - 3 builders
17 - 3 builders
18 - no climbers
    - no blockers
    - no bashers
    - 1 digger


EDIT: Added second set of replays: (still Havoc)

7 - 5 builders
   - no bashers
15 - no blockers
    - no diggers
17 - no blockers
    - no miners

Solutions that leave one digging skill unused can be modified easily to avoid the other digging skills instead.

I hate to say this, but you forgot to upload the frost levels, and, to save time, I've done the Hail levels too.

1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher
2: 4 bombers
3: Done this one earlier today, already uploaded
4: 1 basher, 1 miner
5: 6 floaters, 9 builders (Thanks to Clam Spammer)
6: none
7: 15 builders
8: 6 builders, 1 basher
9: 11 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger (I hate this one. Is there a way to get rid of the digger?)
10: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner
11: 4 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger
12: 6 builders
13: 1 climber, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
14: 2 blockers, 15 builders, 4 bashers
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 10 floaters, 1 builder

A replay for Hail 11 with one digger is downloadable at the bottom of my post.

I've updated them now. Although I know some of them can be improved - like Frost 3, where you can avoid using any builders thanks to steel glitches.

For the rest of the Frost levels it's "None"

Anyway, I asked if Mayhem 15 works with four builders, and Fernito has sent a replay in the challenges thread. Are the other skills essential? I'll have a look.

It looks like you can avoid all the other skills easily enough.

Hail 14 is improved to 1 blocker and 2 bashers, but still the 15 builders are required.

Wicked 13:  We know the level can be done with builders only, so the question is what is the fewest number of builders possible?  Right now I've got it down to 8 builders, but I certainly wouldn't rule out seven.

A better question might be, "Can it be done WITHOUT builders?"  I can't confirm this for sure though.

Have you not looked at the level, Dullstar? You need at least one builder to hit the chain and also, at least 2 builders required for the exit.

I'm pretty sure Dullstar is thinking about the wrong level, as it is pretty obvious that Wicked 13 requires several builders.

At this point, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the minimum for that level is seven builders.  I haven't verified it yet, but I've got evidence from doing each half of the level separately.

So far I've got the left side down to four.  The placement and alignment of the chains seems to be prohibiting this from being reduced down to three, as I can't seem to avoid having a builder hit his head on at least one of them.

As for the right side, I'm pretty sure three builders is the minimum.  It can be done using the blocker cancelling steel glitch to create a step so the lemmings can get to the exit from the top of the third bridge.  I highly doubt two builders is possible for the right side, as that would require the glitch to be repeated multiple times, and I doubt there are enough skills available.  Plus there's also the issue of save percentage.

I've played about with Taxing 10. All skills except builders can be avoided, and so far, my best score is 3 builders. A replay is attached.

Taxing 20 is none. The level can be beaten with just bashers, and just miners.

Here are the Xmas demo levels:

Xmas 91 for both levels: 3 builders

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: None
3: 10 builders, 1 floater
4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers.

The answer?  I didn't check.  Just sayin'.  Plus, if any new glitches are found...

Taxing 12 can be done with 2 builders (replay attached). The other skills can be avoided easily enough.

A quick look at Taxing 7 reveals the following:

-- The climber can be avoided by going underneath the OWW, using the "bash through the top few pixels of steel" glitch. 

-- Using the same glitch, you can take the blocker and one builder out of the solution.

-- The basher and bomber are necessary in both the glitch solution and the standard solution.

Therefore my result for Taxing 7 comes to 1 bomber, 5 builders, and 1 basher.

I thought Taxing 7 was done already. It's not on the list though, so... 

I managed to get Hail 14 down to 10 builders (replay attached) and nothing else.

I'm 99% sure you can do Xmas 91 level 1 with no builders using Tame 20 and direct drop, and level 2 with 1 builder by Tame 20 again.

It is, I did it ages back and came to the same conclusion. (Page 5, I think it was...)

Bumping this up because we haven't finished yet.

Hail 5 works with 8 builders. I had to use all the floaters and the intended solution for this one.

Mayhem 22 almost definitely reduces to a fewest builders problem.

I can do Mayhem 22 with 6 builders (all other skills are not necessary, including the basher). If the first chandelier was one pixel closer, I would have been able to reduce it to five.

Taxing 11: 7 builders
Taxing 13: 1 basher, 1 miner
Taxing 14: 18 builders

Quote from: Clam on October 24, 2009, 03:58:13 AM
Taxing 14: 18 builders

Possible with 17 builders.  I didn't really think I need to post a replay but what the heck.  Too lazy for screenshots, so a spoiler for those who can't view replays:

Spoiler

DOS version has no water, so some gaps you can build over with just 1 builder.  From left to right, the building goes 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 5, [bash across Nessie's head, mine and fall], 3, [take care of the well w/o using a builder]

Clam, you must have missed my results a while back for a few more Wicked levels, because they're not on the list.

Wicked 12:  2 blockers, 6 builders, 1 miner
Wicked 13:  7 builders
Wicked 14:  None

Also, I haven't tested it yet, but Wicked 15 almost certainly comes down to a floater and several builders, although I'm not sure exactly how many...

I can do Mayhem 22 with 6 builders (all other skills are not necessary, including the basher). If the first chandelier was one pixel closer, I would have been able to reduce it to five.

I don't know if it'll make a difference, but did you try the floor route that I used in the single-lemming challenge?

I have. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be the way to go. I can get to the heart-thing with 4 builders (same with the chandelier route), but I can't find a way of getting through it without using another builder (unlike the upper route, which I was able to get through by crafty uses of the miner). I also tried combining the chandeliers with the floor route, but it simply doesn't work, so i'm settling for six unless someone can come up with a better plan.

Meanwhile, i've been working on Taxing 22, and came to 1 builder, though if it was the Master System version, it'd be none. 

I've finally found a way to reduce Taxing 10 to 2 builders, and i'm absolutely convinced you can't get lower than that.

If only someone else could do Flurry and Blitz rather than improve records. Anyway here's what I have for Flurry:

8: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 4 builders*
13: 2 builders
14: 1 builder
15: 5 builders
16: 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 3 builders, 1 basher.*
Rest: none

I'm sure they are improvable in some way. I nearly did Level 10 in 3 builders but couldn't get past the last wall up to the exit without a builder.

Here are the Xmas demo levels:

Xmas 91 for both levels: 3 builders

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: None
3: 10 builders, 1 floater
4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers.

Not all levels were submitted to the front page yet, and also, could you put the totals up for each skill please? I would be quite excited to see what they come up with!

Anyway here's what I have for Flurry:

8: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 4 builders*
13: 2 builders
14: 1 builder
15: 5 builders
16: 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 3 builders, 1 basher.*
Rest: none

I don't have access to Flurry, so I can't verify, but according to this thread, you can beat that level with one skill.

From looking at the level map, the one-skill solution is obviously a builder and there is no way to beat the level without builders.

I think you're right. 8-)

Meanwhile, I've got Mayhem 17 down as 1 builder. This is the first time i've ever managed to pull off the sliding trick. :thumbsup:

I still don't understand the sliding trick.

I don't have access to Flurry, so I can't verify, but according to this thread, you can beat that level [Flurry 15] with one skill.

I remember this one. If you put a builder in the right place, it blocks the other lemmings. Thus the minimum requirement for this level is one builder.

Meanwhile, I've got Mayhem 17 down as 1 builder. This is the first time i've ever managed to pull off the sliding trick.

Did you do this on my dirt version?



I've updated some scores (probably missed some again...) and I'll add totals when I get a moment. Probably tomorrow.

Did you do this on my dirt version?

I ran the same replay posted above on that level... and it works.

Of course it does. ;)

Totals are up now for completed level sets.


EDIT: Finally decided to go through and check some levels. Here's what I've found...

Flurry 16: Possible without floaters, bombers (replay attached with both of these unused) and blockers. Result: 2 builders, 1 basher.

Frost 7: By going through the middle instead of taking the lower route, you can do this with 5 builders.

Frost 9: A builders-only solution is possible. A 1-builder solution appears to be out of reach, so my result here is 2 builders.

Frost 10: I can't imagine why you'd need a floater here. :-\ Thanks to the helpful digger mechanics in this version, you can complete this without miners (replay attached). From there you can trade a digger for 2 miners, leaving 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 diggers.

Frost 13: The nuke-glitch solution here works with 1 builder. Maybe that 2 was a typo? I don't know what happened there.

Frost 14: By going over the top, you can get to the exit with 1 basher. Result: 3 builders, 1 basher.

Frost 15: You can block the lemmings at the left with a miner and bomber, thus saving a basher. This leaves 1 builder, 2 bashers.

Frost 16: Possible without the floater. I cannot believe I never found this solution before - it almost looks as though it was deliberately built into the level. You can avoid the climber (separately) by building from the start and then bashing through the bridge to isolate a lemming. This leaves just 3 builders.

Now the revised scores for Hail:

2: 3 bombers, thanks to the ability to block lemmings into walls.
3: Bashers can be replaced with other skills. 10 builders appears to be a minimum (having one climber per lemming helps a lot).
4: If I recall, I set this as a no-builder challenge a while back. I also got a no-basher solution, which can easily be changed to avoid the miner and bomber. The final result: none.
9: I mentioned my solution for this one in another thread, but I'm not sure if I posted a replay before. Anyway, I did this with 9 builders, 1 basher.
10: 2 builders to cross the gaps, bashers and miners are avoidable ;)
11: I saved a builder with a bit of trickery here, leaving 3 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger.
13: Blocking into walls and a bit of steel digging result in a no-climber solution. 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers.

The attached zip contains replays for:
2 - 3 bombers
4 - no builders
   - no bashers
9 - 9 builders and 1 basher
10 - no bashers
    - no miners
11 - 3 builders
13 - no climber

NOTE: Fix the trapdoors before playing the replays for Hail 10 (copy and paste the middle one).

Here we go with a couple more in Wicked:

Wicked 10

• The 98% solution does not use the climber or the bomber, plus it only uses one blocker.
• The floaters can be avoided completely using a backroute.  This backroute also only requires eight builders, which I doubt can be improved on.
• The digger can be avoided by tweaking the 98% solution to use the bomber instead of the digger to release the crowd.

The result is therefore 1 Blocker and 8 Builders.

Wicked 11: 

• The 100% solution obviously does not require any bombers.
• The digger is clearly not necessary.
• The minimum number of builders I've managed is 3.  I highly doubt this is beatable.  EDIT:  It is indeed beatable.  I originally overlooked the high road solution at the end.
• I've completed the level without blockers
• Bashers and miners can be eliminated in separate solutions, both of which involve bombing through the large tree.

The result here comes down to just 3 builders

I would encourage some of the members here to try some of these solutions out, particularly for Wicked 11.  As I was working through these, I found some new routes for that level that I previously did not know existed.

Quote from: LemSteven on October 27, 2009, 06:53:13 AM
Wicked 11: 

[...]

The minimum number of builders I've managed is 3.  I highly doubt this is beatable.

You need 3 builders to cross two builder-sized gaps? I don't buy that for a second. ;P

Here's a replay with 2 builders.

Also, I haven't tested it yet, but Wicked 15 almost certainly comes down to a floater and several builders, although I'm not sure exactly how many...

6 builders. And that's the last of Wicked and ONML. I'll hold off on posting a total score for ONML until I've checked through again, since I noticed that some of the Wicked scores in particular are beatable. For now, I'll mention 19 (5 builders, 2 bashers) and 20 (1 builder only).

Taxing 23 and 24 can be taken straight from the minimum skills topic, since both of those only give you builders...

Quote from: Clam on October 27, 2009, 09:41:25 AM
6 builders. And that's the last of Wicked and ONML. I'll hold off on posting a total score for ONML until I've checked through again, since I noticed that some of the Wicked scores in particular are beatable. For now, I'll mention 19 (5 builders, 2 bashers) and 20 (1 builder only).

And 18 (2 builders only).  No surprise there, but since you didn't mention it, I might as well stuff the replay in.

Here are the first 9 levels of Blitz:

1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
2: 10 builders, 1 digger
3: 1 digger
4: 1 basher, 1 builder
5: 7 builders
6: 1 basher
7: 6 builders
8: 2 builders, 2 bashers
9: 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 13 builders.

I'm sure that Level 9 works with 11 builders, but I'm getting sick of this repetition in the level. Here a 13 builder replay for it so you get the idea.

Quote from: LemSteven on 2009-10-27 00:53:13

Wicked 11: 

[...]

The minimum number of builders I've managed is 3.  I highly doubt this is beatable.

You need 3 builders to cross two builder-sized gaps? I don't buy that for a second.

Here's a replay with 2 builders.

Well Clam, you beat me to it again!    I was originally using the low road solution for the end of the level, where the gap requires two builders to cross.  It was getting late, so I went to bed shortly after posting that score.

The possibility of using the high road for a two-builder solution dawned on me as I was getting ready for bed, but I had already shut the computer down and didn't want to turn it back on again to check and see if it worked.  I was still a bit nervous as to whether or not the remaining skills were sufficient to support a 2-builder solution.

As for Wicked 19, I am absolutely certain at least one of the bashers can be eliminated.  I'm not certain about the other one, but there's a good chance that it can be avoided as well.

You're saying it can be done with builders only? I'm sure someone would have found it by now if it was possible.

Here are the first 9 levels of Blitz:

1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

It's already been established that the climber and floater are unnecessary.

Here's my 5th (at least) challenge solution for Blitz 7 (although I don't think I uploaded them all). 1 builder. This time with the regular skillset rather than the "cheat mode" of one of each skill.

I've had a stab at two Mayhem levels; 13 and 23.

Mayhem 13 can be done with 1 builder. I've tried for ages to find a no-builder solution, but it just isn't working for me due to a lack of diggers. You can also beat this level without using any climbers, floaters or bashers.

My latest score with Mayhem 23 is 5 builders & 1 basher. The blockers and the floater are not necessary.

Mayhem 28 is 5 builders & 1 basher using the ceiling route (I also used a digger, but you can beat the level without using one).

Meanwhile, I've been working through Taxing...

17: By building up to the top, you can get through with one basher. So far I haven't been able to eliminate the last builder, but I just thought of something...
25: 3 builders, thanks to my patented "slingshot" technique (at least that's what I call it :)). Replay attached, although this is much easier than previous solutions that use this trick. Bashers and bombers are fairly easy to eliminate individually.
26: 5 builders. I thought I posted this replay somewhere, but I can't find it on the forums, so here it is.
27: It's been shown already that the bombers and blockers can be left. Whichever route you take, it seems you need 6 builders.
30: 7 diggers (and 9 diggers for Mayhem 11)

Quote from: namida on October 27, 2009, 10:42:29 AM
Taxing 23 and 24 can be taken straight from the minimum skills topic, since both of those only give you builders...

That would be 12 and 5 builders, respectively.

Quote from: Pooty on October 27, 2009, 10:38:03 PM
Mayhem 13 can be done with 1 builder. I've tried for ages to find a no-builder solution, but it just isn't working for me due to a lack of diggers. You can also beat this level without using any climbers, floaters or bashers.

I tried this one a while ago while looking for "no-builder challenges", and came to the same conclusion.

Quote from: Clam on October 28, 2009, 01:37:27 AM
25: 3 builders, thanks to my patented "slingshot" technique (at least that's what I call it :))

Hmm.. that's a really good trick. I wonder if it can be used to reduce the number of builders I use on Mayhem 23.

Edit: IT WORKED!! :thumbsup:
So Mayhem 23 is now reduced to 4 builders & 1 basher.

You're saying it can be done with builders only? I'm sure someone would have found it by now if it was possible.

Oops.  Taking another look at the level, one basher is clearly necessary.  I forgot you need to bash through the pillar at the end of the upper route. 

Hmm.. that's a really good trick. I wonder if it can be used to reduce the number of builders I use on Mayhem 23.

Edit: IT WORKED!!
So Mayhem 23 is now reduced to 4 builders & 1 basher.

Now it's my turn to be impressed. That's a fantastic effort.

I wonder if you could eliminate the basher by bombing through the wall instead? It looks like at least 14 bombers are needed to break through (maybe fewer with steel glitches), since each bomber can take out 12 pixels if you block it into the wall first.

Now to look at that big gap in early Mayhem:

Mayhem 4:  From the "1 type of skill" thread, both a bombers-only and a bashers-only solution exist.  Therefore this one is None.

Mayhem 5:  5 builders and 4 blockers are needed to reach the exit.  Everything else can be avoided pretty easily.

Mayhem 6:  The level can be done with builders only, so the other skills are automatically eliminated.  The best I've managed so far is 6 builders.

Mayhem 7:  The eleven-skill solution from the minimum skills thread uses three builders, three diggers, a climber, and four bashers.  The climber can be eliminated, as can one of the bashers, so we end up with 3 builders, 3 bashers, and 3 diggers.

Mayhem 8:  I just completed the level using only builders, blockers, and bombers.  The blockers and bombers certainly aren't needed, so it comes down to builders only.  3 builders are needed to get to the one-way wall.

Done the rest of Blitz:

10: 3 builders
11: 8 builders
12: 6 builders
13: 8 builders, 2 blockers, 1 bomber, 1 basher
14: None
15: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher
16: 2 bombers, 1 builder, 1 basher

Taxing 29:
Climbers: Replay using none attached.
Floaters: No replay needed - dig and bash the edge instead of floating it.
Bombers: No replay needed - use dig pits instead of blocking then bombing to release.
Blockers: No replay needed - use dig pits instead of blocking then bombing to release.
Builders: No replay needed - one is needed to get across the middle, every other place a builder is used, a blocker can perform the task instead.
Bashers: No replay needed - anywhere they may be useful, miners and diggers can be substituted.
Miners: Replay using none attached.
Diggers: No replay needed - anywhere they may be useful, blockers/bashers/miners can be substituted.

In short: 1 builder is obvious to cross the middle gap, all others can be avoided quite easily. Attached replays show no-climber and no-miner solutions. All other skills can be easily substituted with other skills.

Therefore, just like it's easier version, Taxing 29 comes down to: 1 builder

For those who can't watch replays:

Avoiding the climber: Use the sliding glitch to get a lemming up the top to mine down. To do this, bash part way into the right area, then stop mid-bash, the rest of performing the glitch here is quite easy.
Avoiding the miner: Use alternating diggers and bashers to lower the height required, then build up to where the climber comes out.

Just spotted another easily filled gap -- Mayhem 26 can be beaten with only bombers, so the number needed can be read off the maximum saved list.

Doesn't apply to the Mac version, of course

That's a nice theory, but it's not right I'm afraid. Here's a solution with 2 bombers - the max % solution loses 4 lemmings.

A few more Mayhem here.

9: 7 builders, 5 bashers
10: 10 builders, 1 floater.

Mayhem 14 I hate so much, I'll leave this to someone else.

There's a glitch route that uses sliding into the steel, then blocker glitches to get the lemmings out on the other side. I would assume this route is the fewest builders. Accurate building removes the need for diggers, and digging through the bridge removes the need for blockers. Therefore, however many builders are needed for that glitch route would be the essential skills.

Here's a replay with 4 [edit: gone], but I just realised it's possible with 3...

EDIT: Even better - just 2.

Wicked 10 <snip>The floaters can be avoided completely using a backroute.  This backroute also only requires eight builders, which I doubt can be improved on.<snip>

I think you forgot something about blockers:

steel-canceling
 

So while still a 12-skill solution using the same backroute, you only need 7 builders not 8.

EDIT: Even better - just 2.

Brilliant!

...but you haven't quite pushed your method far enough.  I've gotten it down to just 1 builder.

Because the solution uses that digger glitch that doesn't work in Lemmix replays, the attached replay stops working at the point where the compressed crowd approaches the right end of the bowl.  I've included a screenshot showing the result of applying the glitch, and another screenshot showing the final result after all the remaining block+dig actions.

[Mayhem] 10: 10 builders, 1 floater.

I've reduced the number of builders to 6, so at the moment, it's 6 Builders & 1 Floater.

[Mayhem] 9: 7 builders, 5 bashers

I've got the minimum number of bashers down to 2.  Now to see if any improvements are possible on the builders...

EDIT: Yes!  Minimum builders is now down to 5, glitch-free.  So for Mayhem 9 we now have 5 builders & 2 bashers.

Quote from: minimac on 2009-10-29 01:22:19

[Mayhem] 10: 10 builders, 1 floater.

I've reduced the number of builders to 6, so at the moment, it's 6 Builders & 1 Floater.

Make that 5 builders.

Quote from: minimac on 2009-10-29 01:22:19

[Mayhem] 9: 7 builders, 5 bashers

I've got the minimum number of bashers down to 2.  Now to see if any improvements are possible on the builders...

EDIT: Yes!  Minimum builders is now down to 5, glitch-free.  So for Mayhem 9 we now have 5 builders & 2 bashers.

Possible with 1 basher.

Improvements to Blitz:

1: 4 builders. This is just the standard solution. (All but the first 3 poles are safe to fall from)
2: 9 builders and 1 digger.

Spoiler

Dig a pit under the trapdoor and release the crowd with a basher

5: 6 builders thanks to a steel glitch, replay attached
8: 2 builders and 1 basher (not 2)
9: 8 builders, replay attached
10: 2 builders
12: 1 bomber, 1 digger (this level has no builders, so I have no idea where the score of "6 builders" came from)
13: 8 builders
15: 9 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher (see attached replay)

I'm really itching to get this finished now. 

As I mentioned earlier, both levels of Xmas 91 are improvable, to "none" and 1 builder, respectively. I got Xmas 92 level 3 down to 7 builders as well. Replays for these three are attached. But...

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: None
3: 10 builders, 1 floater
4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers.

I can't find any way to do level 4 without using both climbers.


Only 6 levels to go and we'll have the whole set. Still to do:

Taxing 28
Mayhem 1, 18, 19, 29, 30.

Mayhem 18  can be done with only builders, so it's simply a matter of minimizing those. I'll give it a go now.

Done with 11 builders, but I'm pretty sure a few more steel glitches could lower it further. Replay attached.

Mayhem 19 can be done without climbers, and 3 bombers is the minimum. The only question is fewest builders, which is however many is needed to reach the absolute lowest point you can get the bombers to, plus one to cover the gap on the left - most likely 5, maybe 6.

I did a "least builders" run on this level in the challenge thread. I ended up using 8. I don't know if it's possible to do better with sliding, but given the abundance of steel and fairly high percentage requirement, I doubt it.

I still have the replay - I don't remember if I ever uploaded it. (EDIT: attached)

Taxing 28: The least-skills solution (7 skills total) uses 3 builders, and no blockers or bombers, and can be adapted to a no-bashers solution. Both the climber and miner can be avoided with a solution that starts by building up from the floor. 1 floater, 3 builders.

(edit: Wow, Taxing can be done with no climbers. That's a nice little surprise )


Mayhem 1: With no climbers available, there's little opportunity (besides the final part) to save builders through steel glitches. I got this down to 15 builders (replay attached - for reference, the least-skills solution uses 17). 1 floater, 15 builders.

Mayhem 19: I don't know how namida plans on doing this with 5 builders, since the best I can manage is 7   (replay attached) 3 bombers, 7 builders.

Mayhem 29: Rather annoyingly, the tight skill and % limits appear to require one more digger and blocker than I'd like. Replays attached with 10 builders and no bashers. 3 blockers, 10 builders, 1 digger.

This leaves Mayhem 29 and 30, which I'll try now.

EDIT: Mayhem 30 almost certainly comes to 8 builders. I'll have to run through and confirm this, which may take a while...

Confirmed: Mayhem 30 with 8 builders.

And that's the lot. Totals are now up in the first post. And don't forget, some improvements may be possible...

Now that everything's finished, it's a good opportunity to move to this thread.

OK, I know. We'll weight the skills according to how many you "can't live without":

Blockers: 20 points
Miners: 22 points
Floaters: 57 points
Bombers: 60 points
Climbers: 61 points
Diggers: 65 points
Bashers: 72 points
Builders: 711 points

Can't say fairer than that

Hm... I don't think we want to have 711 points... perhaps more reasonable would be from 3 to 10 points (rather than 1 to 8, so it's a bit more balanced), based on the ranking here - the most needed being worth the most points.

But it should be discussed in that topic anyway.

Replay of Wild 3 Builders Only

I'm reviving this thread because I just found an improvement:

Havoc 11: 9 Builders (The previous result was 11.)

Obviously this uses the ceiling route, as did the 11-builder solution.  The 9-builder solution takes the ceiling route even farther, so to speak.

Four builders are needed at the start to reach the top of the steel.  Four more are needed to navigate the two sets of hanging vines between the steel walls, and the last is used to free the crowd.  The exit is reached via direct drop.

I'm also not going to rule out the possibility of getting it down to 8 builders by using the release rate as a means of crowd control.  It would get really hairy, though, and I'm not sure I'd have the patience for it.

Finally, alfonz1986 found a no-blocker solution to Wicked 9, which he posted here.

Cool. It looks like the Havoc 11 record was set by minimac, so one would think it would've been improved later, yet it seems Clam never did when he subsequently go through the Havoc levels in that thread.

Your solution reads so much like the ceiling route for that level I know for the min-skill thread (ie. everything you said in spoilers match that solution, at least from what I remember), I'm going to have to take a look later tonight and see if/how it differs.  Might just be a level where no one at the time cared to improve because it seemed tedious?

Good job, LemSteven . It's very easy to overlook things in this challenge, since you have to consider every skill type on every level, and there are a lot of levels (290 "official" levels in all). I may not have even been aware of the ceiling-direct-drop route on this level at the time - it's not one of my favourites . But, with all that said, I can now confirm 8 builders for Havoc 11 - not by controlling the crowd with the release rate, but by using the miner positioning glitch to cross the first gap in the vines with one builder. Replay attached (edit: I should add, this leaves a diagonal-pixel gap that the lemmings will fall through when walking left, so it's unlikely this can be combined with RR to give a 7-builder solution.)


(edit: updated OP)

Your solution reads so much like the ceiling route for that level I know for the min-skill thread (ie. everything you said in spoilers match that solution, at least from what I remember), I'm going to have to take a look later tonight and see if/how it differs.  Might just be a level where no one at the time cared to improve because it seemed tedious?

I found my min-skill solution and it turns out I purposely abandoned the direct-drop solution there halfway, because it actually uses up more skills total, even though it obviously would've used less builders to continue on with the ceiling.  I think minimac just took my min-skill solution to report the 11 builders.  Pity it took this long for someone to catch on!

And here I found a full ceiling-route Havoc-11 solution I've posted ages ago, not for this thread, but rather the "skills to one lemming only" challenge thread (thus the non-optimality wrt to this challenge, though it's still very close to what I'm sure LemSteven did).  By then we've all but of course forgot about this challenge thread.

The "fewest types of skills" thread got me to do a closer look at Havoc 7, and I've managed to reduce the record here from 5 builders to 4 builders.  See attached replay.  One of the glitches used may be worth pointing out:

What I did towards the end with the crowd on the right:  the blocker is set to temporarily "disable" portions of the exit, allowing another lemming to mine without exiting, yet still leaves exit- triggering terrain (after freeing the blocker of course) on the path he creates for the left crowd.

--------

Also, a gentle reminder to update the OP table for Wicked 10 per this post (7 builders, not 8).  Actually, looking back at the solution I wonder if one less builder is possible?

Update to Mayhem 21, a no-climber solution.  Not sure why it was missed, maybe because no one wanted to do this level due to the 50 floaters.

I found a 3-builder solution to Crazy 8. I've tried various ways of saving another builder, and also the basher, but no success on those so far.

EDIT: Success! Completed with no bashers, replay attached. The score for this level is now 3 builders.

Crazy 20 improved to 5 builders. Despite what I said in an earlier post, you can cross the first gap with the icicle with a single builder, without losing a lemming from the right side. All it takes is some frantic bashing and blocking

Neat! It's also rare to find humor on the challenge threads, yet something about the frantic bashing next to the builder inspires both awe and giggles from me at the same time.   Must think about making use of this in a custom level one of these days.

And yet another improvement: I found a way to complete Wild 14 with no builders, which means the result for this level is none.

Curiously, all of these last three levels were originally posted here by me, without replays, and haven't been mentioned by anyone else in this topic. So, if you want to find some potentially improvable scores, you know where to look

No-bashers is replay-worthy too, attached.


EDIT: And another one! Crazy 15 improved to 2 builders.

And here's Wicked 8 with 1 climber (the previous result included 2 climbers).

That's 8 skills off in just over a week . I suppose given the nature of this challenge (essentially combining all challenges of the form "solve this level with at most x of skill y"), it was inevitable that we'd miss a lot on the first run through. Just goes to show, the old challenge threads are still very much alive, and it's good to see challenges in general are active again .

Just goes to show, the old challenge threads are still very much alive, and it's good to see challenges in general are active again .

I'll be the first to admit you're the star of the Lemmings 1 and ONML challenge threads here, no questions about it.  So basically it'll be alive whenever you feel like it and aren't distracted by such things as Minecraft or what not.   (And a scary earthquake every now and then...  )

---------------------

And now, to fill my role as "minor incremental improver of Clam's brilliant solutions":

I found a 3-builder solution to Crazy 8. I've tried various ways of saving another builder, and also the basher, but no success on those so far.

To complement your success with the basher, I am able to save another builder from your solution by not having to waste a blocker, so that the final basher is stopped with a blocker (with very careful field alignment, otherwise the lemmings get pushed too far right and can't slide) instead of a builder.  So down to 2 builders now.

I'll be the first to admit you're the star of the Lemmings 1 and ONML challenge threads here, no questions about it.

Hah, I'd have said the same about you. We're both way too modest

As for challenge activity, I don't want to feel like I'm running the whole challenges section by myself (or the forum as a whole, for that matter). For one thing, you've already seen how one person (even if he is a "star") can miss possible improvements to challenge scores. It also keeps me from spending too much time on Lemmings when I should be doing something else . So, I don't consider the challenges active unless other people are participating too.

edit: post removed, reported Mayhem 18 with 6 builders.

I revisited Mayhem 18 (previous result: 8 builders), and found a solution using only 6 builders. This is definitely a must-see, and like Wild 17 no-bashers it only barely works with the available skills and % requirement.

Hmm, I must be missing something here, I would've thought you could be more builder-efficient if you bomb away the wall separating the two lower groups?  Guess I need to study the solution more carefully to see whether it works or why it won't.

Never crossed my mind.

edit: Fine, my day is ruined. Go on and finish it, I have other things I need to do.

/ragequit

 

Well, I guess I can work on something else and come back to this later, if you haven't decided to redeem yourself by then.  Or maybe someone else will take a pass at it for a change?

/un-ragequit

All right, I couldn't stay away from it.

Mayhem 18 improved to 3 builders.

As it turns out, most of the tricks I figured out for the earlier solution came into play again. Which is to be expected, I guess . Just goes to show, a small oversight can make a huge difference. And, as I alluded to above, this is why it's not good to be doing the challenges all by yourself; another set of eyes really helps
All in all, I'd say this was a top-class collaborative effort (:

I had another run through the holiday '93 levels, and saved another 5 skills

Flurry 10 improved to 3 builders (was 4), by devising a method of scaling the awkward exit platform with no builders.
Blitz 1 improved to 3 builders (again, was 4). This is another one from the 'how has no one managed to improve on my score by now?' file, not even replay-worthy (but included it anyway )
Blitz 6 improved to none (previously 1 basher, now done away with )
Blitz 15 improved to 8 climbers (was 9), 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher.
Blitz 16 improved to 1 bomber (was 2), 1 builder, 1 basher.

Typical of the cross-pollination between this topic and the "fewest skill types" topic, my work there on Blitz 2 has just eliminated the digger.

Hail 3 sux improved to 9 builders, with a bit of miner glitching to duck under the top of the map.
Hail 5 improved to 6 floaters 6 builders, surprisingly simple actually.
Hail 7 has already been reported at 14 skills total , but currently reads 15 builders here. Sadly there's no replay in that thread, and I can't reproduce it right now, but I did manage it with 14 builders + climber, which is good enough for this challenge.
Hail 8 is possibly doable with 5 builders instrad of 6, but would take some extreme releaserate jiggery-pokery that I can't be bothered with right now.

Havoc 17 reduced to 2 builders.  This one needs a bit of "releaserate jiggery-pokery" to work.

Confirmed Hail 8 with 5 builders. Turns out I didn't need to play around with the release rate after all (besides the obligatory switch to RR99).

Here's a no-basher solution for Taxing 17.  I even got it save 100% to help with minimac's latest challenge topic.

Some preliminary testing also suggests that no-builder might be plausible, but it'll take a little more time for me to work it out for real.

It is possible to gain a walkable height of 9 pixels via the following skills: basher, bomber, miner, climber, bomber.  Use this in two places, and then for each place, make up for rest of needed height via other means.

Some preliminary testing also suggests that no-builder might be plausible

Confirmed!  So Taxing 17 down to none finally.

Fun 28 improved to 4 builders. Sadly, 100% doesn't seem likely, since the key builder-saving move involves using a basher or miner on a bridge in progress, and either way it looks like that lemming is toast (literally ) due to the lava below.

It is possible, with better timing, to make the miner glitch-cross the gap into the pillar, but that leaves a gap in the bridge, which presents its own problems. But still, that's probably the only hope of 100% here.

Fun 28 improved to 4 builders. Sadly, 100% doesn't seem likely, since the key builder-saving move involves using a basher or miner on a bridge in progress, and either way it looks like that lemming is toast (literally ) due to the lava below.

It is possible, with better timing, to make the miner glitch-cross the gap into the pillar, but that leaves a gap in the bridge, which presents its own problems. But still, that's probably the only hope of 100% here.

Hmm okay, is it fair then to say at least that 100% is possible (with suitable confirmation from you) with 5 builders then?  Given that the normal "build to exit" needs 6 this would still be an improvement.

Good point

And, predictably, the answer is yes.

How do you do Mayhem 21 with 21 floaters?

another of Clam's awesome (and glitch-free in this case) ideas: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=98.msg1821#msg1821

It's also fair to say that there's a bit of optical illusion at work here, as the fall's not really that far away from a safe fall as it might look.

Frost 6 improved to 1 blocker, 4 builders, thanks to a rather straightforward solution found as part of this challenge.  (See this post for attached replay.)

To revisit an oldie...

Tricky
18: 1 bomber, 1 digger

Replay without using the bomber attached. =)
Doesn't acheive 100% (you need both builders to delay the crowd until the fall is safe, thus leaving you with no way to stop the digger), but hey. Still one less skill required. =P

Awesome!!!

I've amended the totals, and added this to "skills needed for max%" as well.

Cool, and a new(?) clever technique for use in custom levels as well. I love how there's still something new to learn after so many years.

Not entirely new - the trick (or rather, a very similar one) is used in the intended solution to "A Perfect Nightmare" from LP DOS. However, there's also a backroute, somewhat negating it. xD

I found another improvement (and another example of challenge threads feeding off of each other) 

Wicked 17: 4 builders.

The first lemming builds as soon as he lands, and the second climbs and builds up ahead, such that he lands on the platform above the right exit.  Meanwhile the third and fourth lemmings build such that they reach the post on the right, but don't turn around.  Three lemmings will reach the post before the bridge is done, so they all climb up.  If the rightmost bridge is placed properly, none of the climbers will fall short of the platform above the exit.  One final blocker turns everyone around by the exit.

Yep, cross-pollination from other challenges has lead me to improve Havoc 13 down to 2 builders via sliding.

I startled doing this challenge with those 36 levels from the PSP version. I need to update the Lemmix version of Dig Down, Bash Across, for it to be more similar to the real one. There's a chain that you can dig down to reach the bottom without basher. You can already do that but in a different and longer way. I just wanted to let everyone know why it's been updated yet again. At first it wasn't needed if you're playing the level normally but for this challenge, it's necessary. I tried reading posts to understand how the challenge works.

Thanks to this challenge, I'm finding mistakes in the levels but that also means more fixing. This is what I got so far.

1.Climb to victory
1 Climber

2.Save the Lemmings with Floaters
1 Climber 1 Floater

3. Dig Down, Bash Across
1 Climber 1 Basher

4. Block first, Explode second
2 Blocker 2 Bomber

5. Bridge Across, Mine Through
3 Builder 2 Miner

6. Bash in the Direction of the Arrows
1 Builder 4 Basher

7. Crystal point
4 Builder 3 Basher

8. So near, so far
5 Climber 2 Builder

9. Pillar talking
5 Builder

10. Just 17
2 Builder 2 Basher

11. Down the line
2 Basher 1 Digger

Can you remind me where I can download the PSP levels you remade?

Their in the database. I'm currently fixing level 10 Just 17. I already have the results for that level, I'm just fixing the alternative solution where you go to the bottom. It uses more skills, so it's not better than the top path, which is the intended one. In Pillar talking, if you dig on the pillar, you're forced to use builder or miner to stop him, because in the old Lemmings a digger will keep digging even though he's only removing the edge, like this:

Seeing double! has steel terrains that are breakable and because of this, you can beat it with one less basher. Should I remove the steel in the Lemmix version and make it possible to break it there too, or should I just leave it there? This can cause both the PSP and Lemmix version of this level to have different results, if I leave it there.

Up to you.  I guess it would be a nice bonus if every solution that works on the PSP also works on the Lemmix version.  For me, I think I would worry more about having solutions that only works in the Lemmix version and is much easier than the intended solutions on PSP, in other words backroutes that are specific to Lemmix.

I removed the steel so the level can resemble the real one more. I also took out the ones in Release is the word. There's actually a solution that only works in Lemmix in Tunnel vision, that was found by Akseli.  You can beat it without using basher. The miner can destroy pieces of terrains that are behind him and it creates a ceiling that stops climbers from going where the top entrance is. I put a replay in the attachment so you can see it. Here's the link to the level:
http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichYLEglMZXZlbFBhY2sYgICAgKCSnwoM/

12. A to B
2 Basher

13. Chain reaction
5 Bombers

14. Tunnel vision
5 Climber 1 Builder 1 Basher 1 Miner
Lemmix doesn't need bashers

15. Two good friends
1 Basher 1 Digger

16. One man does all the hard work
1 Builder 1 Basher

17. Release is the word
2 Builder

18. The run around
1 Climber 4 Builder 2 Basher

19 Three steps to heaven
7 Builder

20. Lemming toast
2 Builder

21. Seeing double!
2 Climber 1 Blocker 2 Builder 3 Basher

22. The Wormery
6 Builder 2 Miner

23. The Flood
7 Builder 3 Basher

24. ...with a little help from my Lem
2 Climbler 3 Basher 2 Digger

25. Not as easy as it looks
3 Digger

26. Back of the net!
1 Blocker 2 Basher

27. Wrong points of view
4 Builder

28. Float in Light, at Lemming Head Height
1 Floater 3 Builder

29. A Bridge Over Lemming Slaughter
3 Builder 2 Basher

30. The stairs are not floored
2. Builder

31. Quickly now
5 Builder

32. Gather round and break away
1 Builder

33. Cagey business
1 Floater 5 Builder 1 Basher

34. Born a blocker, die a blocker
10 Climber 9 Blocker

35. No justice for the hero
1 Builder 1 Digger 1 Miner

36. Notch what you thin it is!
1 Builder 1 Digger

I finished it.

28 Climber

2 Floater

7 Bomber

4 Blocker

72 Builder

33 Basher

5 Miner

7 Digger

Excellent work! I've added these to the first post, though, as Lemmings PSP is a separate platform, I haven't added them to the grand total.

I also did the challenge on the remakes of the PSP levels in Lemmix. You can download the them in the database and test it yourself. The total number of bashers in Lemmix is 32, since it doesn't need basher in Tunnel vision.

Covox Lemmings Demo
Fun 1: None. This is easy.
Fun 2: It can be solved using only builders. I can't do it with no builders, but I managed a 1-builder solution, thanks to the overly generous amount of climbers (well everything really, but climbers is what was useful here). Someone who's better at the precise timing needed can probably reduce that to zero with the blocker-push-into-wall glitch.
Tricky 1: Again, one builder. Kind of obvious where you need it; the remainder can be handled by the ol' alternate-bashers-and-diggers-to-create-steep-ramp trick.
Tricky 2: 21 Climbers, 1 Bomber, 2 Builders. No way around it, you need every skill you're given.

I'll do the remaining 4 levels another time, unless someone else does them first.

Taxing 1: You can get the builders down to 7 fairly easily (well, it does take advantage of an oversight and one minor trick, replay attached anyway). Anything else can be eliminated pretty easily except for 1 basher. So final answer seems to be 7 builders, 1 basher.

Taxing 2: 7 builders are required to get to the exit. Everything else can be eliminated very easily.

Mayhem 1: 2 builders. This is insanely easy.

Mayhem 2: None. Also very easy. The one point that may be tricky is the traps - but their positioning is such that even on such a thin platform, you can dig and bash under them to bypass them.



Unless there's something I missed on Tricky 2 (and I highly doubt it), I'd say the only room for improvement in any of these is Fun 2. As I said; I'm sure someone with more patience than me can knock off that last builder.

Prima
Fun 1 - None. This is easy.
Fun 2 - 1 Climber, 1 Blocker, 1 Builder, 1 Miner, 1 Digger. The bomber is obviously not needed but everything else seems to be essential. I can get 97% without using either the blocker or the digger (but using the bomber), or 96% with only the climber, the bomber and the builder. But it requires 98%.
Fun 3 - None, also an easy one.
Fun 4 - 2 Builders, 1 Basher. Replay attached, but it's really just a matter of using the terrain to create a wall with only two builders instead of needing three. There might be more, but I could only find one exact place where this could be done, and both builders needed to be pixel-precise. (Worth noting is that it's possible without the basher under CustLemm mechanics, but not under OhNo mechanics which is what (AFAIK) Prima uses. This solution simply involves a three-builder wall and the other 7 builders to build over the obstacle. The fall however is too far under OhNo mechanics; while you could build to a direct drop into the exit if you were to use the same two-builder wall from my replay, as far as I can tell there's no way to keep the crowd at bay long enough to do so.)

Tricky 1 - 1 Builder. This is simple.
Tricky 2 - 6 Bombers. The remainder, you can choose between a blocker or two extra bombers, so only the 6 bombers are common to both.
Tricky 3 - 1 Builder + 1 Digger is possible. 1 Floater + 1 Bomber + 1 Builder is possible. Both are fairly obvious solutions. I can't find any way without a builder so: 1 Builder.
Tricky 4 - (see below) + 1 Digger can be done with a somewhat unusual trick (replay attached). There's an obvious solution with only two diggers. Given the level layout, it's very obvious you can't do it without at least one digger; so that's the answer here: 1 Digger.

I'll do Taxing and Mayhem soon, probably.


I highly recommend trying the one-digger solution to Tricky 4 for yourself before watching the replay. :)
The total skills used in it are:

Spoiler

1 Floater + 2 Blockers + 1 Basher + 1 Digger

Continuing with Prima...

Taxing 1 - Can be solved with just builders plus a single floater. Minimum builders I can manage it with is 11, and this solution does not need a floater. It's not a very tricky solution, but it does take advantage of an oversight in the level's design that you'd probably notice anyway while attempting this. So: 11 Builders.
Taxing 2 - There's at least one spot where you can dig to solve it with just a single digger (and a release rate change). It can also be solved fairly trivially with just the builders. So: None.
Taxing 3 - Ugh, I hate this level even without challenges. So, I can manage 2 Builders, 2 Bashers, 2 Diggers. By exploiting the exact position of the trigger areas, it's also possible to do with 1 Floater and all of the destructive skills bar 2 diggers (eliminating the builders). The first solution, it's possible to substitute a miner for a digger with very good timing, but I can't reduce the bashers. So it seems: 2 Bashers, 1 Digger.
Taxing 4 - Fairly obvious solution with 2 Blockers, 2 Builders and a Miner. (If you need a hint, cram the blockers as close together as possible and you should be able to work the rest out). A digger and a basher can substitute the miner, but due to the thin terrain and limited builders, I'm willing to say the blockers are the only way to contain the crowd, and 2 builders are absolutely essential to the solution, so: 2 Blockers, 2 Builders.

Mayhem 1: The obvious solution here is a Builder and a Digger. A not-so-obvious one (direct drop xD) can be done with a Digger and a Floater. The digger is very clearly not avoidable. So: 1 Digger.
Mayhem 2: Not going to try this one right now, it's the kind that's very annoying for this challenge. I'll probably come back to it later.
Mayhem 3: A direct-drop variant of the obvious solution can be done with 1 Floater, 1 Bomber, 2 Blockers, 4 Builders. By stretching the builders as far as you can from the edge and placing two more after top-edge-hits, you can do this same solution without a floater. By using every spare builder you have as delays, you can do this same solution with only one blocker. I don't see any way to avoid the other blocker or at least 4 builders, so: 1 Blocker, 4 Builders.
Mayhem 4: The only skill that isn't possible to rule out very easily is builders. As for the minimum of them, it's fairly easy to tell it won't be any lower than 7. While not overly hard, it isn't overly easy to do it either - but 7 is indeed doable. :) so: 7 Builders.

WORTH NOTING: The Mayhem 3 1-blocker solution also saves 97% (78/80) lemmings, breaking the current record listed here (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1383.0). I've posted a replay in that topic.

At least in Dosbox, Prima-Tricky-4 can be done with 1 digger, 1 basher, finishing with 5 seconds left on the timer. RR to 99, dig the central pillar as far right as possible, bash to stop the digger. The crowd walks to the level's right and back in time.

namida, what extra condition would you suggest to enforce the more interesting 1-digger route?

Level codes for tricky: 2. DLCI JLL GCR, 3. HCAN LNL HCU, 4. CIOL LDL ICY.

-- Simon

I prefer "TRICKY2", "TRICKY3" and "TRICKY4" myself, yay for Lemmix. :P

But anyway, while I'm not 100% sure that this'll enforce it (though it should), an additional requirement to make the more interesting solution: Solve the level in 1 minute.

So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPvb2nJxteM) that it can be done without the digger.

Quote from: Proxima on April 23, 2018, 02:24:17 PM
So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPvb2nJxteM) that it can be done without the digger.

Not quite. We still don't have any result for Mayhem 2 of Prima. :P

Quote from: Proxima on April 23, 2018, 02:24:17 PM
So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPvb2nJxteM) that it can be done without the digger.

Nice one!  I just solved it without watching the video.  I'm truly shocked nobody found this one earlier, especially since I had experimented with a similar solution for the "Under 1 minute" thread.

Quote from: LemSteven on April 24, 2018, 03:27:54 AM

Quote from: Proxima on April 23, 2018, 02:24:17 PM
So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPvb2nJxteM) that it can be done without the digger.

Nice one!  I just solved it without watching the video.  I'm truly shocked nobody found this one earlier, especially since I had experimented with a similar solution for the "Under 1 minute" thread.

I can't replicate the youtube video in legacy Lemmix, the steps seem too wide and the basher stops after one stroke.  LemSteven/Proxima, did either of you have a chance to actually try it out in either Lemmix or DOS Lemmings?

I'm not well versed enough in what mechanics were tweaked in NeoLemmix to apparently make it possible there, maybe someone else can chime in.

I didn't see Nessy's solution in the video, but if it's what I think it is...

Spoiler

(One lemming climbs, bash through the staircase about half-way through the middle section, build to both turn around and close the gap, mine down to start area, make the worker into a floater so he doesn't die)

...then no, this will not work on DOS / vanilla Lemmix. NeoLemmix's basher is a fair bit more sensitive than the DOS L1 basher.

Hmm. I tested it on the Lemmix Player I have, but now that I look again at the player, it has "Lemmings, NeoLemmix Edition" on the main menu screen. Sorry about the confusion :( Where does one get vanilla Lemmix players these days?

I did my solution in DOSBox, and it turns out it was completely different from Nessy's solution (which I believe doesn't work in DOS):

The Basic Idea:

A right-facing basher and miner stop each other and create a walkable path over the first obstacle.

Solution

Make the first lemming a climber and set the release rate to 86.  After a few lemmings come out, drop it back to 50.  The climber scales the ledge and mines after a couple of frames.  The fifth lemming out then bashes as he hits the wall.  The basher and miner should stop each other on the miner's fourth stroke, and the terrain will allow the crowd to ascend the ledge (see attached screenshot).  Build over the gap, using climbers to save the lemmings that fall in.

So, I decided to take a look at the last level that hasn't been looked at at all: Prima Mayhem 2: "Which way do we go?".

My first result so far is 5 builders. I was able to navigate round the level saving all the other skills apart from builders, replays attached. The real question is whether it can be done with just 1 builder. The 100% requirement, the land being littered with traps and the turnaround needed to use the left exit makes this more challenging.

Edit: Now down to 4. Didn't realise I had a basher left over in the 5 builder solution to bash underneath the first left trap.

So, I decided to take a look at L3D in this challenge. While it probably won't be as interesting as the L1-type games, the large number of backroutes might at least make it somewhat interesting.

Here's some baseline suggestions for (most of) Fun.

Fun 1 "Take A Dive" - 1 turner
Fun 2 "That's Right" - 2 diggers (don't worry about crowd control, just use the diggers, and you'll save 4 more than required)
Fun 3 "The Bean Machine" - 3 builders
Fun 4 "It's A Run Around" - 1 turner, 2 diggers
Fun 5 "Bounce Bounce" - 7 turners
Fun 6 "It's A Blast" - 4 bombers
Fun 7 "Candyland Climber" - 1 bomber, 1 basher, 2 climbers (I did quickly try a go-under-the-cane route, but I can only save 3 that way, and at any rate still use all of these skills)

Fun 8 "Lemmings Inside" - 2 turners, 1 builder

A slight variation on the lose-2 solution completes the level with 1 blocker, 2 turners and 2 builders. The "normal" solution can be done without the blocker and with only 1 builder (at the cost of also needing a basher and 2 additional turners).

Fun 9 "A Shortcut Through The Forest" - 5 turners

The lose-5 solution uses only 5 turners. It is possible to avoid the builder by using the same off-the-path route near the end as the lose-5 solution, using turners to reach that point.

For the record, I did look into whether any improvements could be had by using the invisible blocks near the well, but didn't find anything useful.

Fun 10 "Castle Lemmalot" - 2 builders (This is simply the save-all solution)

Fun 11 "It's A Classic" - 2 blockers, 4 turners

The normal approach uses 5 blockers and 4 turners. This leaves 6 remaining turners, which can be used to replace three of the blockers with double-turners.

Fun 12 "Alpine Assault Course" - 1 turner, 5 bombers
Fun 13 "Tower Of Stone" - 13 turners, 2 builders, 20 floaters
Fun 14 "Slippery Maze" - 6 turners (using the invisible route)
Fun 15 "The M-A-Z-E" - 4 turners, 1 basher (I can find three different routes with these skills - one of which makes a huge improvement in terms of time taken - but none without them)
Fun 16 "Down The Middle We Go" - 4 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
Fun 17 "Hole In Ten" - 1 blocker, 2 bashers, 1 floater
Fun 18 "Corkscrew Digger", Fun 19 "Attack Of The 50ft Lemmings" - ??? (I'll leave these ones to the people who've found existing really-impressive solutions to these two levels, I suck at them)
Fun 20 "Alilemms" - 4 turners, 1 builder

Fun 19 on 3D Lemmings is 2 turners.

Spoiler

The maximum save solution requires the use of 2 turners.
There's also a solution that makes use of the 50ft Lemming's right foot that requires just one cutting tool. Basher or digger work fine.

Continuing with L3D, here's a start on Tricky.

Tricky 1 "Jelly Climber" - 2 turners, 8 climbers (this is just the normal solution, but letting two lemmings die instead of making them climbers)
Tricky 2 "Which Exit?" - 2 blockers
Tricky 3 "This Is The Army" - 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber, 1 floater (basically just the normal solution, executed really carefully)
Tricky 4 "Fore!" - 3 turners, 2 builders, 1 miner

Tricky 5 "Breakout" - 1 turner, 2 bombers

The save-76 solution uses only 2 bombers. (If you've used 3, look for one that can be replaced with a turner.)

The 1 turner solution is a bit trickier; rather than trying to explain it, replay attached.

Corkscrew Digger is currently 4 turners and 8 miners. 8 miners is the normal solution, and I see no way of improving on it at the moment. I have attached a replay for the 4 turner solution because it's quite messy.

Spoiler

Use the first 4 turners as per the normal solution. Increasing the release rate after a while helps with making the hole for the later lemmings to fall straight through to the exit. I found a way to make it work using a release rate of 45.

Worked on the next 5 levels, and here's what I've come up with:

Tricky 6 "Lemmhanger" - 2 blockers, 5 turners, 2 builders, 1 basher (the digger is not required to pass the level)

Tricky 7 "Follow The Yellow Brick Road" - 6 turners, 4 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

The blockers can be spared by building up to the entrance with a 6-step builder, then building from the bottom step to the top of the obstacle.
One digger is required at the beginning of the yellow path, and one basher is needed near the end of it. The rest of it can be cleared by various combinations of the other skills.
Release rate management can help you avoid using any climbers.

Tricky 8 "All Around the Watchtower" - 1 basher

The builder is not required in the solution, but it can be used to stop lemmings walking back past the entrance by building up to it. This trick allows you to avoid using the blocker, the bomber or the digger in separate solutions.

Tricky 9 "Land Ahoy" - 4 turners

Best-known solution uses 4 turners.
The bashers can be spared by building up the side of the boat closest to the exit, then using turners to get around the mud.
The builder can be spared by using a turner as a lemming is going up the sloped crate at the back of the boat, bashing through the rest of the crates, then using turners to get around the mud.

Tricky 10 "Tooten Lemming" - 5 turners, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

I'll leave Tricky 11 for someone else, but for Tricky 12 "Dot To Dot", I suspect this route was already used in the max saved solution (I don't know for sure, I haven't tried to get max-saved on this one), which - without trying to save extra lemmings - uses 11 turners and 17 builders. (It is vaguely possible this route was overlooked, due to that it involves a frame-perfect builder assignment half way through - I knew the "skip from 4 to 9" solution a long time ago, but this one is "skip from 3 to 10" via the frame-perfect assignment.)

EDIT: Nevermind, the max saved solution - when adjusted to not worry about saving as many as possible - reduces this to 5 turners + 11 builders (additionally requiring either a 6th turner or a bomber, but since either is an option, that doesn't matter for this challenge - and that's if that extra skill is still needed at all when not worrying about saving the max).

Finishing off the rest of Tricky. There could be room for improvement for some of these.

Tricky 11 "A Head Above the Rest" - 14 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers

Tricky 13 "Shadow Maze" - 6 turners

Tricky 14 "Oh No! More Pyramids!" - 3 turners, 1 builder

Maximum saved solution makes basher and miner interchangeable.
A further turner can be spared by mining underneath the first deflector block on the second island.

Tricky 15 "Chocolate Drop" - 2 turners, 2 builders, 1 digger

Maximum saved solution uses two turners. To save enough lemmings to merely pass the level, you don't need to use the second digger. Also, the blocker in this solution can be switched for double turners.
The miner can be spared by having a lemming turn around on the island with the five chocolate pieces, then using a throwaway turner to stop the turned lemming from digging too far whilst creating the safety drop onto the exit. An example of this solution is attached to this post.

Tricky 16 "Lemlab" - 3 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
Tricky 17 "Garden Maze" - 4 turners, 1 bomber, 1 climber (digger not required)
Tricky 18 "Play Time" - 3 bashers, 1 digger, 1 climber (second climber not required)
Tricky 19 "Stilt Walkers" - 4 turners, 2 builders
Tricky 20 "King Coder's Tomb" - 5 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger

Having a butcher's at the first half of Taxing.

Taxing 1 "Spaghetti Junction" - 6 turners

Taxing 2 "Picky Platform" - 1 blocker, 5 turners, 2 bashers, 3 climbers

One blocker can be spared by using the first turner after the first lemming has turned around, then quickly sorting out the nearest one-way wall before too many lemmings get diverted (you have some leeway, so don't panic!).

Taxing 3 "Let the Race Begin" - 4 bombers, 4 builders, 4 bashers
Taxing 4 "Poles Apart" - 1 turner, 5 builders, 4 bashers (climber and floater not needed)

Taxing 5 "3D - A Lemming Odyssey" - 5 turners, 1 builder

Best known solution uses 5 turners; the first builder stops lemmings falling into the mud past the first splitter block, the second builds over the traps. These steps allow you to be more direct with your turners.
One builder can be spared by building left before the first splitter block, grouping up all the lemmings on the left side of the exit by using two turners, freeing them with a third turner, then blitzing through the traps.

Taxing 6 "Ricochet" - 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 floater

The blockers can be spared by using a bomber before the spring to remove the deflector block (WARNING: Do NOT use the bomber immediately before the spring because the steel-looking platform it sits on is not really steel! The optimal place to use the bomber is one tile before the lemming uses the deflector block). After that, use a well-timed digger to get another lemming to turn, float and build the landing step before the other lemmings arrive. I have attached a replay of this solution.
The digger can be spared by using a bomber at the top platform instead. You need to make sure another lemming turns around and builds the landing step when you detonate the bomber.

Taxing 7 "If the Timing Is Right!" - 5 turners, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 1 digger
Taxing 8 "Rescue Team" - 9 turners, 4 bashers
Taxing 9 "Which Trampoline?" - 6 turners

Taxing 10 "It's the Name of the Game" - 1 turner

The best known solution uses one turner. There is a deflector block between the 'G' and the 'S' that must be used.
The builders can be spared by using a climber-bomber to blow up a significant chunk of the 'E' so that the other lemmings can use the two trampolines to advance. Using two turners on the first 'M' allows you to avoid using more destructive skills than you need to, and this helps keep the builder count at zero.
Using the front-end of the 'LEMMINGS' text is instrumental in preventing the use of the other skills.

Quote from: Pooty on August 03, 2019, 02:09:41 PM
Tricky 19 "Stilt Walkers" - 4 turners, 2 builders

Reduced to 2 turners, 1 builder

2 Turners

Make the first two lemmings turners so that the lemmings walk directly toward the exit.  From here, simply building twice to the exit won't work because the final brick will make the crowd fall too far.  Fortunately, there is a way around this: When a lemming lays a brick, there is a very slight delay before he actually steps on it.  If another lemming from the crowd steps onto the brick during this delay, he will be ahead of the initial builder.  You can then assign him the builder skill and he will lay his full 6 bricks, while the original builder will lay just one more brick and quit.  This allows you to only place 10-11 bricks instead of the usual 12.

1 Builder

Place two turners as shown in the attached screenshot, then make the third lemming a builder the instant he turns off the second turner (this is a frame-perfect assignment).  Now use four more turners to direct the crowd to the exit.

Taxing 11 "Chaos Maze" - 3 turners, 1 digger, 1 climber (Max saved solution uses that + 1 basher; solving without the basher is trivial; there's nowhere the wall is only 1 block high so climber + digger are very clearly required)

Taxing 12 "Team Work" - 5 builders, 1 basher

As seen in the save-all solution, you can get a single lemming over the first one-way wall with 3 builders + 1 basher, the basher being used to stop the crowd following him and falling to their deaths. You then need two more builders to get over the second one-way wall, bringing it to 5. You can get the rest of the crowd past the first one-way wall in this setup by using either a 6th builder (to repair the hole made by the basher) or a 2nd basher.

Taxing 13 "Motherboard" - 1 blocker, 2 turners, 1 builder (I spent a bit of time looking for other solutions, but didn't find any)
Taxing 14 "Away Team" - 5 turners

Taxing 15 "Birthday Cake" - 1 climber

Attached replay solves with 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber. You can substitute the miner for a digger. If doing this, you'll also need the floater and a second climber.

To eliminate the builder and basher, send climbers up the structure near the start until walkers are able to ascend it. The first climber should block once he's off the sloped part, the next one should dig immediately upon turning around (so that the blocker is freed) then mine towards the start. You can use either the builder or the basher to clear the obstacle near the exit.

I haven't yet had any luck finding a climber-free solution, but I haven't conclusively ruled it out either.

Taxing 16 "The Arena" - 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder maybe? (I didn't solve this - but the record is lose-2, and I'm pretty sure this level can't be done without the turner and builder, meaning 1 bomber?)
Taxing 17 "T Minus 5 And Counting" - None (the 100% solution uses only one skill, a basher; the same route can be done, lose-1, with a bomber replacing the basher)
Taxing 18 "Snake" - 1 blocker, 16 turners, 3 bombers (the max-saved solution achieves 3 bombers; however there aren't enough spare bombers to use this trick with the otherwise-normal solution and save a turner)

Taxing 19 "Lemmtris" - 1 builder, 2 miners

Solving it without the floater is done by building from immediately below the start (at the edge of the block is okay), sending a climber out of the containment area, mining into the left wall then immediately mining after turning around - this should let him fall to the yellow block, which he then bombs on to create a safe fall to the bottom. Release the crowd with another bomber, and build-mine through the final wall.

Eliminating all the other skills is fairly trivial.

Taxing 20 "Death Slide" - 1 turner, 3 builders

Turn to the right when under the rope, build, build back on top of the wall (make sure to drop onto it!), build twice towards the exit. This solves the level with a turner and 4 builders.

You can then solve it with 3 builders by using the deflector block near the bridge together with a turner, building from under the entrance, blocking, and building over the wall, the rest should be obvious from there, though note that the 2nd builder must be assigned very precisely so it starts from the top step of the 1st builder's bridge (you've only got one frame to do this, but if you carefully position the mouse and rapid-fire click, you'll get it fairly easily).

I'm 100% sure that it's not possible to solve without the turner, though I'm not completely convinced that 2 builders isn't possible - although I can't see anything.

Regarding Mayhem 1 - I think it's possible to eliminate some skills, even though the normal way uses everything. However, in both cases, the timing required is insane, so I'm probably not going to be able to pull it off myself. I can't say for sure these are possible.

My ideas for Mayhem 1

To eliminate 1 climber - Using release rate manipulation, set it up so that the bomber used between the two blocks on the far side, is timed so that one lemming slips past and can dig, without him having to get ahead by being a climber. If it helps, the digger that builds across the gap, can dig one slice further than usual, which creates an area that can hold the crowd while still successfully crossing the gap.
To eliminate 1 bomber - Don't bomb the lemming that digs away the first block. Instead, use a "Fill The Floor" approach (alternate RR99 and min-RR, to try and group up lemmings even more tightly than RR99 alone does) to slip the crowd past while he's digging. Note that the tile at the bottom of this column is water, so this cannot be used to make a save 79 solution, even though the arch tile next to the column is solid. For the same reason, this cannot be used to save an (additional) climber.

Quote from: namida on August 07, 2019, 06:04:43 AM
Taxing 11 "Chaos Maze" - 3 turners, 1 digger, 1 climber

Chaos Maze has been reduced to 3 turners, removing the digger and climber.

Spoiler

Increase the release rate to 68*, then work your way outside the maze. Compress all the lemmings in the position shown by using a blocker, then bash through the wall. Using the ramp on the other side, guide the lemmings through the traps and into the exit.

I have also attached a replay of this solution.

(https://i.imgur.com/BGr4GyR.png)

*If you elect to use another turner instead of the blocker, you need to change this release rate to 67.

Quote from: LemSteven on August 07, 2019, 03:33:16 AM[Stilt Walkers] Reduced to 2 turners, 1 builder

Nice one. It was this level in particular I was having an issue with. I felt there was something, but I could not pull it off. :thumbsup:

But wait a minute... your two-turner solution saves 57 lemmings. The record at the time of posting is 56. That is a new record!

Mayhem 2 "Brenchin's Staircase" - 3 blockers, 2 turners, 3 bombers, 3 bashers, 4 climbers (I simply can't see a way to save ANY skill on this one)

Mayhem 3 "Tower of Lemlab" - 3 turners

The max-saved solution uses 3 turners, 2 builders, 1 basher; and the basher can be substituted by a bomber.

To complete with 1 builder, turn left at the start towards the block with the electric field underneath it. Climb-bomb this block - if timed precisely, the bottom slice of the block will remain, and lemmings can safely step on it. Turn towards the middle of the level, and from here on, follow the normal non-backroute solution. I'm not sure how well I described this, so replay attached just in case.

EDIT: Pooty noticed that you can just turn and drop straight down, shortly after the main trick of the above solution, and thus cut out the other builder as well, reducing the overall requirements to just 3 turners.

Going back to Mayhem 1 "The Five Arches" - I've now found a way to save 1 climber that doesn't rely on crazy timing - RR 99 at the start, and have a walker instead of the climber bomb to stop the digger on the first block; you can then re-use this climber for another of the climber-required tasks. I'm not sure if it will be possible to combine this with my timing-based idea and end up saving 2 climbers - I haven't ruled it out, but I'm also not particularly interested in trying to pull off something that finnicky. Aside from that one climber, it still uses all the skills.

This puts Mayhem 1's confirmed results at 2 bombers, 1 builder, 3 diggers, 2 climbers; with theoretical solutions that might eliminate 1 bomber and another climber.

Quote from: Pooty on August 07, 2019, 12:19:05 PMBut wait a minute... your two-turner solution saves 57 lemmings. The record at the time of posting is 56. That is a new record!

Good catch!  I realized the same thing late last night, but I had already turned out the light to go to sleep and I had to get up early this morning.  I updated the record in the Max Saved thread.

Quote from: namida on August 07, 2019, 06:04:43 AM

Taxing 15 "Birthday Cake" - 1 climber

Attached replay solves with 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber. You can substitute the miner for a digger. If doing this, you'll also need the floater and a second climber.

To eliminate the builder and basher, send climbers up the structure near the start until walkers are able to ascend it. The first climber should block once he's off the sloped part, the next one should dig immediately upon turning around (so that the blocker is freed) then mine towards the start. You can use either the builder or the basher to clear the obstacle near the exit.

I haven't yet had any luck finding a climber-free solution, but I haven't conclusively ruled it out either.

Here's a no-climber solution:

Spoiler

Bash through the cake with pink icing and two cherries on top, then have the second lemming dig at the base of the chocolate ramp.  One lemming continues to the jelly bean ramp and mines through it so as to free everyone.  Now build to clear the obstacle near the exit.

Hi there! It's great to see the Challenge boards being revived again. I've updated the OP and added the 3D Lemmings results, except for Taxing 16, because I'm a bit confused by the result on one of the posts.

Quote from: namida on August 07, 2019, 10:21:37 AM
Taxing 16 "The Arena" - 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder maybe? (I didn't solve this - but the record is lose-2, and I'm pretty sure this level can't be done without the turner and builder, meaning 1 bomber?)

So namida. Is this your confirmed result so far for this level, or have you not solved it at all yet?

Continuing with Mayhem.

Mayhem 4 "Ski Jump" - 2 turners, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 climber, 1 floater
Mayhem 5 "The Prisoner" - 3 bombers, 1 builder, 1 digger, 5 floaters
Mayhem 6 "Family Tree" - 7 turners (attempted a 6-turner solution, was short by just 2 lemmings)

Mayhem 7 "Driving Range" - 2 turners

Best-known solution uses 2 turners. I see no effective way of forcing the lemmings to use one spring without both of them.

All other skills can be removed by virtue of there being a solution that only uses turners. Second lemming turns towards Camera 1 on the first spring, third lemming turns towards the other turner. Then follow this route:

(https://i.imgur.com/Gt6riW2.png)

Mayhem 8 "Five Towers" - 1 turner, 4 builders

Normal solution uses 1 turner, and it is absolutely required.

There are two solutions where the lower set of lemmings do all of the work. A miner is used to free the other lemmings.

• The climber and digger can be spared by bombing the middle of the thin bridge from underneath. You will need to use an extra builder to position this bomber.
• The bomber can be spared by having the last lemming that comes out climb the first tower (with the aid of a builder), then dig the middle of the thin bridge from the top.

The miner can be spared by having one of the upper lemmings climb-bomb a large chunk of the blocks that are trapping them, then build the rest of the way out.


There is a solution with tight timing that uses only 4 builders. I have attached a replay of this solution.

Please refer to this image for the route the lower lemmings will take. Note that 3 turners and a deflector block are used in this setup.

(https://i.imgur.com/6naeMNX.png)

• The first upper lemming climb-bombs as per the no-miner solution.
• Use the first 2 turners on the lower lemmings.
• Shortly before the 15th and 16th lemmings come out, boost the release rate to 99.
• The 4th upper lemming that you see (AKA the 5th upper lemming that came out) builds, then turns.
• The lower group of lemmings will need one more turner at this point, then you can start building the bridge. This bridge requires 3 builders.
• The last upper lemming should land on the exit platform shortly before the bridge is complete. Use a miner so that the lower lemmings can get up.
• Use your last turner to direct the lower lemmings towards the exit.
• Just before the miner removes too much terrain, make it a digger. If all goes well, you will rescue 30 lemmings, which is exactly the requirement.

Mayhem 9 "Over the Top" - 1 turner, 1 builder, 1 digger, 2 climbers (floater not needed)

Mayhem 10 "The Hanger" - 1 turner, 1 builder

All skills except 1 turner, 2 builders and 1 floater can be spared by having the first lemming become a floater almost immediately before it lands, build over the acid, increase the release rate to 99 at around the time the second lemming comes out, then turn all the lemmings to the exit. You will save 63 lemmings, which is the requirement.

One builder can be spared by having the first lemming block, then alternate between setting the release rate to 35 and unleashing 16 lemmings at a time at a release rate of 99. Once all the lemmings are out, make the second-to-last lemming become a turner so that one lemming escapes before the rest of the pack do. Then use a builder and turner (with a basher to cut the bridge short if you wish) to complete the level. (A replay of this solution is attached to this post.)

The former solution also doesn't use the floater, which is trivial anyway.

If there's something I've said that doesn't make sense (of if there's something I've not said that should be), let me know. This was a very long post.

Quote from: Minim on August 08, 2019, 03:02:10 PM

Quote from: namida on August 07, 2019, 10:21:37 AM
Taxing 16 "The Arena" - 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder maybe? (I didn't solve this - but the record is lose-2, and I'm pretty sure this level can't be done without the turner and builder, meaning 1 bomber?)

So namida. Is this your confirmed result so far for this level, or have you not solved it at all yet?

I am able to confirm that The Arena can be completed with 1 turner, 1 bomber and 1 builder.

[spoiler="The Arena" bomber timing](https://i.imgur.com/B3OXhO4.png)[/spoiler]

A few more from Discord:

Mayhem 11 "Across The Network" - 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 basher

Mayhem 13 "The Catacombs" - 15 turners

To both eliminate builders and achieve this number of turners: Block immediately with the first lemming and set the RR to 67. Bomb the blocker when all lemmings are out. Take the same path (except without building over traps) as in the max-saved solution, except when you get to the 3rd trap, go straight through it instead of taking the detour around it; thanks to the crowd compression, you'll only lose 1 lemming in each trap. Even if you're a bit late assigning certain turners and the lemmings walk through traps a second time, you've got more than enough to spare for this to happen once at each trap. This is the most direct route to the exit possible.

Chances are no "standard" solution to this level ever makes use of the blockers or bombers, so it's pretty easy to then get rid of those.

Mayhem 14 "Jelly Belly Islands" - 2 turners, 3 builders
Mayhem 17 "Critical Path" - 2 bashers
Mayhem 20 "Final Maze" - 1 turner

Except for Mayhem 13, all these results are Pooty's.

I've completed the rest of Mayhem. Here are the results and explanations.

Mayhem 11 "Across the Network" - 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 basher

The bomber and one basher can be spared. The lemmings that go left from the splitter block can be brought back by using a turner immediately after using the deflector block. For the lemmings that go right, use a blocker. Then you can bash, turn and build your way to the exit.

The blocker can be spared by building over the splitter block, bashing through the block above it, then use a turner to direct the lemmings left so that they go across the two bridges on the side. When the lemmings reach the one-way wall, use a basher and turner to direct the lemmings to the exit.

Mayhem 12 "Raiders of the Lost Lemming" - 4 turners

There is a solution that only uses turners. Increase the release rate to 37, then as the lemming is walking back towards the entrance, make it a turner so that the other lemmings go back and forth between the pillars. Once all the lemmings are grouped up, use more turners to direct them to the exit. They will easily eat through the trap threat.

A 4-turner solution can be performed by increasing the release rate to 99, direct the lemmings towards the exit with turners, then have the first lemming that walks into the trap zone use a builder to diffuse one of the traps. Enough lemmings will get through to complete the level.

Mayhem 13 "The Catacombs" - 15 turners (see namida's post above)
Mayhem 14 "Jelly Belly Islands" - 2 turners, 3 builders

Mayhem 15 "Hole in One, Two, Three!" - 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger

If you boost the release rate to 78 between the first and second lemmings (and then reduce it again after that), you will have enough time to save either a basher (delay first follower lemming with a builder) or a builder (stop the leader lemming from building the final two steps with the basher, just before you need to use the digger).

Mayhem 16 "Fun Fair" - 1 blocker, 5 turners, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger, 6 climbers

Mayhem 17 "Critical Path" - 2 bashers

Set the release rate between the first and second lemmings to 64, and the rest of them to 99. All the follower lemmings will get turned around after the leader lemming bashes through the deflector block, and gives you enough time to avoid the need to use delay tactics. With this in mind, the bomber can be spared by having the last lemming dig once, and then stop it with the blocker.

Mayhem 18 "Castle Peralus" - 7 builders

There is a 100% solution to this level, freeing up the bomber. This route involves one lemming digging to halfway down the tall column in front of the exit, then interrupting it with either a basher or a miner. If you use a basher to do this, you spare the one miner you have.

The bashers can be spared by following the 100% route, freeing the digger with the miner, then freeing up the lemmings on the flanks by using a climb-bomber and/or a climber, digger and the builder to stop this digger when it has cleared enough terrain.

I will attach replays for the no climber, no digger and 7 builder solutions because they are a bit complex.

An example of a no-climber solution is as follows:

• Build to the top of the middle section with 3 builders. You need to build into the entrance to get enough height.
• Build over the deflector block that's in the way.
• Use a digger at the end of the destructible path before the big drop.
• Bomb the digger before it gets all the way through.
• Have a new digger start digging in the hole the bomber made. This makes sure all later lemmings that use this path survive the drop.
• Bash your way to the exit.
• Use 6 builders to get the flank lemmings to the top. This also involves building into the entrances to get enough height.

An example of a no-digger solution is as follows:

• Set the release rate to 99 after the second set of lemmings spawn.
• Start building the middle bridge 1.5 blocks away from the block near the entrances. If placed correctly, it will take 3 builders to reach the wall (with the third builder laying just one brick).
• Make the lemming that built the bridge a climber.
• Use a miner near the end of the destructible path, making sure it mines exactly 2 times. The idea is to make an area the other lemmings will turn around with, but also to make sure the builder in step 9 can be successful.
• Go back to the rest of the middle lemmings and start bashing through the wall.
• Near the end of this tunnel, make it a bomber. All the other lemmings will fall through and reach the bottom of the level.
• Use your last two bashers to clear the way to the exit.
• Get one set of the flank lemmings to the top. Use three builders each, making sure to build into the entrances so that they can get to the top of the wall. Make sure the leading lemming has plenty of daylight between themselves and the rest of the pack.
• After the leader lemming gets turned around, build over the deflector blocks in the middle. This is to get all the lemmings into the central path and into the exit.
• Get the remaining flank lemmings to the top in the same way you did the other.

An example of a solution that uses no more than 7 builders is as follows:

• Make the first middle lemming a climber.
• Make it a miner near the end of the destructible path.
• Start building the middle bridge 1.5 blocks away from the block near the entrances. Build 2 times.
• Use a bomber at the top of this bridge. If placed correctly, it should look like this:
  
  (https://i.imgur.com/DyoRReO.png)
  
  
• Use another builder. Allow the builder to walk away.
• Make the next lemming bash from the penultimate step. It will remove the last step, then the step it started bashing from, then it will finally start bashing through the wall.
• Bash all the way through, then use a digger.
• Use your last two bashers to clear the way to the exit.
• Get the flank lemmings to the top by building 1 block away from the block near the entrances. It should take two builders each, and they will reach the steps you made earlier with the bomber in step 4.
• Use a digger where you mined earlier to get them into the exit, taking care not to build directly over the other hole you made earlier.

Mayhem 19 "Tuther Circus Level" - 1 bomber, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 climbers (blocker not needed)

Mayhem 20 "Final Maze" - 1 turner

There is a spot where you can build over the trees and into the exit area. This is accessible by using only turners and bombers/bashers. This eliminates all skills except the turners and the builder.

(https://i.imgur.com/dhXlyyw.png)

You can reduce the number of turners to 1 by making note of the fact that the sloped slippery block in the above image can be destroyed and that the lemmings can stand on the pillar underneath it. Using a builder to get over the first one-way block, work your way to the spring at the top of the steps. Then make the following setup (ignore the first lemming that uses the spring; it is facing the wrong way, it cannot help you and you cannot save it):

(https://i.imgur.com/fXD3VKp.png)

The slippery block will take either 3 bombers or 1 miner and 1 or 2 bombers (depending on accuracy) to destroy it. I think it's easiest to use 3 bombers, timing them at the highest point of the spring trajectory.

Once the block is destroyed, use your one turner to direct the lemmings to the exit.

The builder can be spared by using a similar approach, except by using turners and bashers to get to the spring.

Quote from: Pooty on August 09, 2019, 03:34:05 PM

Mayhem 15 "Hole in One, Two, Three!" - 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger

If you boost the release rate to 78 between the first and second lemmings (and then reduce it again after that), you will have enough time to save either a basher (delay first follower lemming with a builder) or a builder (stop the leader lemming from building the final two steps with the basher, just before you need to use the digger).

I got this one down to 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

Spoiler

Have the second lemming bash through the deflector block immediately after the second spring.  The first lemming builds over the water and eventually gets launched by the spring.  He will have just enough time to complete the route to the exit before the next launched lemming catches him.

The third lemming follows the first too closely to use the spring, so he must blaze the route for the crowd to cycle back to the spring after passing it.  This can be done with just 1 builder, by simply building over the spring just as he reaches it from the wrong direction, resulting in a 1-basher solution.  Alternatively, he can bash through the three obstacles to loop back around to the spring, resulting in a 3-builder solution.

Taxing 12 "Team Work" improved to 4 builders, 1 basher.

Spoiler

Existing result is 5 builders, 1 basher.

For a 4-builder solution: RR99 immediately. Send a climber back over the block under the entrance. Build over the water right at the edge - this will mean a climber can continue but a regular lemming cannot due to the ramp. Have the climber bash through the one-way wall near the exit, and die.

Now, back in the crowd, have a lemming bash through the block underneath the entrance. Have the last lemming in the crowd set up the 3 builders to get over the first one-way wall - bam, solved with 4 builders.

It is possible to do a variation of this solution that solves with 6 builders + 1 basher instead of 4 builders + 2 bashers, but of course, this doesn't actually improve the final result.

Taxing 8 "Rescue Team" reduced to 7 turners + 4 bashers.

Spoiler

Turn right. Bash to release the lemmings here. One turner towards each remaining set of lemmings. Bash to release each. One turner each to get back on the main path. Assign a turner pointing towards the first turner, such that this new turner and the first turner both point towards each other and will trap the lemmings in one spot. When all the lemmings are compressed, bomb the first turner. Plenty will slip through the traps, and it's then just a turn towards the exit and bash.

Taxing 18 "Snake", the blocker is not needed (so: 16 turners + 3 bombers). Just do the max-saved solution, but let the lemmings that turn around die instead of using the blocker; you'll still save enough.

Mayhem 1 has been reduced to 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 diggers, 2 climbers (difference: -1 digger)

Spoiler

Climb-bomb the first block.

I have tried to reduce the number of climbers and bombers used in the level, but there are two critical issues: there does not appear to be a release rate combination that allows all the lemmings to get over the first obstacle using only a climber and digger, and the jump glitch (where falling lemmings may hop onto the top of the block they bumped into) interferes with the 1-climber idea. In order for this idea to work without interference, one walker lemming needs an enormous head start.

I have recently found a solution that increases the number of lemmings saved in Taxing 18: "Snake" (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1383.msg76348#msg76348). This solution reduces the number of turners used by 10, so the latest score on that level is 6 turners, 3 bombers.

And I found a solution that further increases this to 68 69 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1383.msg76351#msg76351), in the process bringing the result for this level down to 4 turners, 3 bombers.

Mayhem 7 "Driving Range" is now "none", thanks to this turner-free solution. It doesn't anywhere near improve on the number of lemmings saved, though.

Spoiler

To achieve this - with the first lemmings able to do so, build towards the walls on the half-way points of the left and right springs (leaving the middle one), then build up towards the middle. Have a digger dig in the middle. This gives a setup where only the middle spring will activate from here on; if done quickly enough, you'll get enough lemmings on the middle route (which can be fairly easily completed with the remaining skills) to meet the save requirement.

Tricky 8 "All Around The Watchtower" is also none.

Spoiler

Existing result is 1 basher.

To solve without the basher: Use the blocker on the left, digger on the right, builder (into the entrance block) for those who turn back to the start. A well timed climb-bomber will get through the obstacle in front of the exit.

EDIT: Added a replay, just in case. :)

Mayhem 2 "Brechin's Staircase" has been improved to 3 blockers, 2 turners, 1 bomber, 3 bashers and 4 climbers (difference = -2 bombers).

Spoiler

Do not bomb the first two blockers. Ignore them and turn anyway.

QuoteTricky 7 "Follow The Yellow Brick Road": 6 turners, 4 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

Here's a solution that uses only 2 turners, and no bashers or diggers. It still uses all 4 builders, and doesn't improve on the saved record (it matches it exactly) - though I have a variation in mind that might improve it by 1 lemming.

Explanation

The first lemming builds three times such that he finishes up against the wall. This is just shy of reaching the top - that's fine. Meanwhile, two athletes go over the wall and build a splatform on the other side (first one blocks - the green blocks around the exit are steel just like all other non-yellow blocks in this level). While all this is going on, the 4th and 5th lemmings block immediately under the entrance.

Once all the above is done, blow up the blocker holding the crowd (not the one on the water side, obviously). You then use a bomber at the top of the bridge to trigger the jump glitch, sending the lemmings up to the top. They fall onto the splatform on the other side, and two turners get them to the exit.

For a variation that saves 35 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1383.msg76358#msg76358), you instead need to very carefully time the bomber that releases the crowd, such that the lemming that built the bridge can use a digger to trigger the jump glitch.

Unless you already understand the jump glitch fully, this may be very hard to follow, I suggest watching the replay.

EDIT: And also a solution that solves with 3 builders.

Use the above solution's jump glitch setup to get the crowd up the top of the block, then instead of using a splatform, use the normal solution from there on.

Thus, the result for this level is now 2 turners, 3 builders. I very much doubt there's any room for further improvement, unless we discover a steel glitch of some kind.

I not know is this right place put this. Couple builder challenge solutions SNES version lemmings. Its seems im first who make those videos in youtube. This 80% (2 builder solution was really hard one) 100% 3 builders is longer, but easier one. Both was pretty hard figured out.

Taxing 12 Livin on the edge any-% (80%) saved (2 builders)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZeR2LgIzIE

Taxing 12 Livin on the edge 100% saved (3 builders)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLAI5Js3B2A&t=2s

The original post here suggests any% with 2 builders is already known on DOS. There was another topic, IIRC, for "skills you can't live without + max saved", but I can't seem to find it. It's possible 3 builders 100% is an improvement there.

EDIT: Found it. At least on DOS, 2 builders 100% is known to be possible. https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1414.0

I think it's fine to put this post here. We're never going to do the entire "skills you can't live without" challenge for SNES, but individual level results might be interesting.

Quote from: Pooty on August 09, 2019, 03:34:05 PM
[L3D] Mayhem 16 "Fun Fair" - 1 blocker, 5 turners, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger, 6 climbers

As I mentioned in the min-skills thread, this one can be done with just 3 builders (plus all of the other skills, of course).  It's really just the standard solution.

Mayhem 7 "Poles Apart" with 2 bashers. :) (DOS / Lemmix)

And Prima Mayhem 3 "Old MacDonald Had A Farm" with 3 builders. Similar to the last one, this is a case of "huge oversight on everyone's part" rather than some novel trick / approach.

Havoc 4 "The Race Against Cliches", no digger.

You can do this much more similarly to the NL version of this if you use the pause-for-time glitch, however I have here a glitch-free execution of it too.

Here's a no-digger solution to Havoc 18.  It's actually pretty straightforward except for a well-placed bomber to ensure the crowd doesn't wander astray while the final bridge is underway.  The attached screenshot should provide sufficient detail on the solution.

This just barely works, but Mayhem 25 has been reduced to 4 builders.  A detailed solution and screenshot are provided below.

Solution

The first lemming builds a couple pixels back of the edge (he needs to lay 7 bricks before turning on the steel).  The second lemming dies, and the third lemming becomes an Athlete and climbs over the steel wall.  After the first lemming turns, he digs in a pixel-precise location, such that he just barely takes out the edge of the steel below.

Let the Athlete drop down a level and then have him build just before he falls a second time.  The 7th lemming out builds as soon as he drops into the digger's "tunnel"; this bridge should close the gap just in time to save the 10th lemming.  Meanwhile the Athlete builds over the next gap, starting from the very edge.

The lemmings will drop down to the stairway below and to the left of the exit.  Block off the gap to the left of this stairway, and send two climbers up toward the exit (one is the Athlete that was assigned earlier).  The first climber blocks shortly before exiting, and the other mines immediately after turning off the blocker, freeing the crowd.  Now bash to free the blocker, and everyone can exit.  Assuming everything was done right, you'll end up saving exactly 90% (the minimum).

More improvements on Hail 11! Thanks to a brilliant trick involving miners, blockers and a diagonal ceiling I can confirm the result for this level has been reduced.

Replays attached below (Although the other one is rather trivial once you know about it)

The result is now 3 builders & 1 miner.

Some more Hail improvements with replays attached (I'm afraid. :P)

7: 13 builders
8: No bashers (5 builders still needed)

And also attached, a solution I've always wanted to find a replay of but never did: The 4 builder solution to Fun 16.

It's interesting to compare Luis's results (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1084.msg43414#msg43414) for PSP Lemmings (played on the actual PSP version) with our results (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4614.msg90043#msg90043) from the NL conversions of the levels (which, I believe, are based on Luis's Lemmix conversions, although I have made small tweaks to a few levels).

Obviously, some results differences will be because of the different engines (e.g. the shredder in Level 33 requires an extra builder to build past in NL) and some might be because of inaccuracies in the conversions. However, some differences may be because only one person has attempted this challenge on the PSP levels, and it's easy for one person to miss things (e.g. Eric's post here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4900.msg90088#msg90088) suggests that the digger is not required on Level 36).

So it would be interesting to go over the PSP results and try to improve them -- and also to see whether any of the cases where the PSP result is better than the NL one are because we missed something when playing them in NL :P

[EDIT: Already discovered two cases where Luis caught something that we missed -- Levels 15 and 21. :thumbsup:  And thanks to Pooty, all the remaining cases where the PSP result was an improvement on the NL result have now been confirmed on NL too!]

[EDIT 2: Also, the adding up of the PSP results was wrong on a few counts :P  I've taken the opportunity to correct it, taking Luis's results for the individual levels as correct for now, even though I suspect that several of them can be improved.]